Fall Book Club with Laurel Francoeur, The Allergy Lawyer

This fall we are talking about advocacy, and Laurel Francoeur is joining us to give us an overview of our rights as food allergic individuals. She touches on all the hot topics including allergies in schools, flying with allergies, and our right to safe foods in restaurants. Laurel has been advocating for her son and everyone with food allergies for decades, and continues 

Laurel Francoeur, The Allergy Lawyer
 https://www.theallergylawyer.com/

Resources discussed:

Food Allergy Research and Education (FARE): FoodAllergy.org

Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America (AAFA): Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America | AAFA | Home

Food Allergy and Anaphylaxis Connection Team(FAACT): https://www.foodallergyawareness.org/

Allergy and Asthma Network: Allergy & Asthma Network | Breathe Better Together (allergyasthmanetwork.org)

Allergy Eats: https://www.allergyeats.com/

3 action steps

1.       Buy Laurel’s books, Flying with Food Allergies and How to Advocate for Your Food Allergic Child, both available on amazon or on her website theallergylawyer.com/books

2.       In September, Laurel did a workshop with FARE called Protecting Food Allergic Students in Schools: Know Your Rights and the replay is available online. Protecting Food Allergic Students in School: Know Your Rights (foodallergyacademy.org)

3.       Check the section of FARE’s website called Know Your Rights. Topics including school guidelines, access to epinephrine, restaurants, and even becoming an advocate if you are interested. Know Your Rights - FoodAllergy.org

Special thanks to Kyle Dine for permission to use his song The Doghouse for the podcast theme. www.kyledine.com

You can find Dr. Whitehouse at www.DrAmandaWhitehouse.com
or on Facebook (Dr. Amanda Whitehouse, Food Allergy Anxiety Psychologist)

Transcript

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 0:00

A lot of times, people will say, well, if you're that allergic, don't go out, you know, don't go to the restaurant, don't go to the amusement park, but that's not realistic either. I mean, we shouldn't have to live. In a bubble and not participate like every other human being does

Speaker: 0:15

Welcome to the Don't Feed the Fear podcast, where we dive into the complex world of food allergy anxiety. I'm your host, Dr. Amanda Whitehouse, food allergy anxiety psychologist and food allergy mom. Whether you're dealing with allergies yourself or supporting someone who is, join us for an empathetic and informative journey toward food allergy calm and confidence.

0:37

I'm so fortunate to have the chance to talk today with Laurel Frank cor the allergy lawyer. Laurel isn't attorney leveraging her personal experiences and legal expertise to fight for the rights of people with food allergies and raise awareness about the challenges they face. Laurel's legal background has strengthened her advocacy efforts, enabling her to offer insights into the legal aspects of food, allergy rights and protections. In addition to being a practicing attorney, Laurel is a national speaker on the topic of food allergies. She has drafted legislation in Massachusetts to allow easy access to epinephrin for students in classrooms. She has testified at the state and federal level about food allergy issues. She's also worked with the Massachusetts department of public health on food allergy guidelines for restaurants. And Laurel is the author of several books, which we will talk about in today's book club, episode.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 1:30

Thank you so much for joining me because I, I think you have such a different perspective than a lot of, the other people who are in the food allergy space and community. So I'm just really excited to have you on and pick your brain about all, all things. in your world and in this legal world

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 1:46

well, thank you for having me.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 1:48

Do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself you've shared that you have a kiddo with food allergies. And so then your practice became focused on that. Is that right?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 1:56

Yes, so I was an attorney, for a few years and just doing general practice, litigation, different things. And then my son was born in 2000 and he had multiple food allergies, peanuts, tree nuts, eggs, soy, sesame, and shellfish. And at that time, not a lot of kids had food allergies, so it was kind of a novelty. so I kept working, and then I sent him to kindergarten. I had a discussion with the teacher, the nurse thought everything was under control. then he had a reaction at kindergarten. teacher gave him, gingerbread frosting that had egg in it. And he licked his hands. and went into an anaphylactic reaction. The teacher didn't recognize it though. Luckily it was the end of the day and when I came to pick him up he was in the corner covered in hives. So I had to give him the epi and take him up to the hospital. and then I realized the school doesn't get it. I thought they understood it but they don't. So I need to really focus on this and keeping him safe. So I stopped full time practice. I decided I would just work out of my house doing small things like wills. And then I devoted myself to learning as much as I could about food allergies and his rights and that kind of thing. we had some issues with the teacher not wanting to have the children wash their hands she thought it was too hard to have the 26 kindergartners washing their hands. And so, I had to kind of fight that and she almost got fired for not wanting to do that. And, it was a whole big issue. So it just sort of made me realize, I want to know what, what are my rights? What are the responsibilities? What should I look out for? And just sort of did a deep dive.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 3:42

Yeah. Well, I was thinking that's one thing that hopefully has changed with the, with the pandemic. COVID world now, washing hands is not considered, right, something that we don't do regularly. So that was around 2005 then it sounds like. So give us kind of the overview from then until now, almost 20 years later, how are things changing? Is that shifting a little bit? Right.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 4:06

when I first was dealing with food allergies, there was sort of only one online resource and that was POFAC, Parents of Food Allergic Children or Food Allergic Kids, and it was sort of a list serve and it was sort of rudimentary, but it was it was good. You could connect with people, but there wasn't the information on the Internet that we have now. So you couldn't just Google food allergies and get it. of resources. doctors didn't even have resources at the time. So I remember my pediatrician was just totally stunned when his allergens came back and he said, know, I think you're just going to have to cook and bake everything and can your own food and say, what am I going back to, you know, the little house on the prairie times. So there was really not that understanding. and that has increased. Unfortunately, more and more people have been getting allergies, but the upside to that is there's more education and resources.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 5:04

Definitely. If things hadn't come along of where you, where you would be with just giving up that career and staying home and canning your goods. Not that there's anything wrong with canning foods, but

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 5:14

No, no, no.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 5:16

yeah,

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 5:16

that wasn't what I wanted to do. And,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 5:18

yeah.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 5:19

um, when I started looking into the laws, so in Massachusetts, where I'm from, the EpiPen had to be kept in the nurse's office and it had to be actually locked in the nurse's office and couldn't be anywhere else. one of the issues that I had was his kindergarten was on one side of the building and the nurse's office was on the other side of the building. I said, this isn't right. He should be able to have his EpiPen in the classroom. I researched the law and figured out that this one law needed to be amended because it allowed inhalers to be carried, but it didn't allow EpiPens. So I wrote this bill saying that EpiPens should be allowed everywhere in the school. And I got my local representative to agree with me. we filed this as a bill. It took us seven years, but it finally got passed. so now any student in Massachusetts has the right to have their EpiPen in their classroom or wherever they need it in the building.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 6:15

Good for you. What was the status of that in other states at the time with specifically to EpiPen?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 6:21

I, I don't know, but it was, there was not a lot of, uh, there's very, there was very little law about EpiPens at the time because it, it wasn't really, again, well known. I mean, we're talking, you know, 2005, you know, so, you know, There was really a lot, not, not a lot to guide us at

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 6:40

Right. Well, and, and as you know, there are still families struggling with their schools. now to let the kids self carry to have their epinephrine with them on the bus. And as we all know, five minutes away in the school is too far. You know, if someone needs their epinephrine, they need it immediately. Five minute delay is not acceptable. So what It sounds like it's a state issue, state to state. Is that pretty widespread now at this point? Do people, do parents have a legal basis to say that? And if so, how do they find that out?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 7:12

You'd have to go to your state laws, so

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 7:14

Uh huh.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 7:14

is different. So for instance, um, stock epinephrine. schools now are allowed to have stock epinephrine, which is epinephrine that's not designated for a particular person. So 49 states have that law, Massachusetts doesn't. So we are the only state that does not have a law allowing epinephrine to be stocked at schools or in any other place.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 7:38

And I would imagine that's,

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 7:39

mess.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 7:40

oh sorry, go ahead.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 7:41

but luckily, Massachusetts schools will have their district doctor write a standing order for epinephrine to cover that we didn't make a law. We had different things offered for laws and they never went anywhere. So, but. you go to any other state and you're going to see stark epinephrine in Massachusetts. It's not there. So,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 8:04

Right. And I was going to say, that's probably a different law specific to have stock epinephrine in schools versus, you know, the issues that we find where, can, uh, police officers and emergency responders and do all ambulances carry epinephrine or not, but those are all separate issues, right? Separate legal issues.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 8:20

right. Right. And so my next, when I have spare time, my next, um, issue is going to be in Massachusetts. It says the nurses, may train staff and how to administer epinephrine. But it doesn't say shall. So I have had at least two cases where schools have said none of the teachers want to be trained and we can't force them to be trained. So because it says we may trade them doesn't say we have to train them. So that's, so that's my next goal is to have that changed.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 8:57

Right. And then you represent people individually, right? You're not just doing advocacy in terms of the laws. You, you represent individual families, right?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 9:05

Yes, yes, I do.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 9:06

How does that play out when obviously a student under the Americans with Disabilities Act, a student has the right to be kept safe and to have their medical situation accommodated in the school. Doesn't that? Involve having an adult who knows how to administer epinephrine to them safely. What do you see as the cases play out?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 9:25

Well, so luckily in one of the cases we went to a hearing with the Massachusetts Department of Education and they said somebody has to. They mandated the school to have somebody, because you just couldn't have only the nurse be the only one. So I don't know how the school ended up figuring out, which person to be, the designated trainee. so, so luckily we had the DOE to make that decision, but., it just shows you that the, there's, like you said, there's a patchwork of laws and they're not always even consistent with one another. So for instance, the stock epinephrine law, so Massachusetts specifically says you can't lock epinephrine. So one of the bills that they proposed would have had the stock epinephrine locked. So

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 10:12

What good does it do if we can't get to it quickly?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 10:15

Yeah,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 10:17

For those who aren't familiar, a lot of people are, but it is very confusing, especially to those of us who aren't legal minded. Can you give us kind of the basic rundown of the laws that cover our rights as people with food allergies?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 10:30

so the ADA, which is the Americans with Disabilities Act covers food allergies. Now the there's a caveat It's also it's done on a case by case basis So you can't blanketly say always going to be covered as a disability It's still up to you as the person bringing the the action to prove that it's a disability But so for instance, there was a case I don't know maybe 20 years ago, said food allergies are not a disability because If you eat something, you have an EpiPen, and then you're back to the same level as everyone else, so you're not really disabled. So,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 11:10

Which we know is not always the case, right? Sometimes it is.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 11:13

if you

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 11:14

Right.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 11:15

then you're able to breathe, so you're no longer disabled. So in 2008, the ADA was amended, so it changed that, so you can't rely on assistive devices and say, just because I have something that will make me feel better, doesn't mean I don't have an underlying disability.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 11:30

I see.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 11:31

then you saw the case law start to shift, but it shifted slowly. so at the beginning, some cases were still going back to that old land case and saying, well, it's not really a disability. Um, but luckily now more and more courts are recognizing it. So as a disability, then you're entitled to certain accommodations so that you can experience the school environment equal to your peers, your non disabled peers. Parents object to the fact that you're labeling your child as disabled who has food allergies, but it's sort of a legal term. It carries a lot of weight, but in order to get the accommodations, you have to prove that they're disabled. and disabled means you have a condition that affects a major bodily function. for instance, with food allergies, your ability to eat is affected your ability to breathe when you're having a reaction. So also the 2008 ADA said you have to consider the condition when it's active. So you can say, well, you know, if you're not having an allergic reaction, then you're breathing isn't affected. You know, you're not eating isn't affected, you, so you have to analyze it. If you were having a reaction, what parts of your body are affected? And then that's how you get into the disability space. So, um, That means you're entitled to certain accommodations, and accommodations basically mean an adjustment from the way things are typically done. So you have a right to have programs modified to make it easier for you to participate. But what those individual accommodations are is, is up for debate. And so it depends. It has to be an individualized decision what that child needs. at that time, what the school can provide. So a lot of times parents think, well, whatever I want, I'm going to get. No, it's, it's a negotiation with the school. You have to work on it and figure out what's the best way. get negotiated. So that's, that's the ADA. there's a similar law called Section 504, which also applies mostly just to, public schools, but any, facility that gets federal funding. So if it's a private school that participates in the federal lunch program, or if it's somehow tied to federal funding, then that institution has to make accommodations for the person with food allergies. And again, it's, you know, what are those accommodations and then there's, there's some limitations. So for instance, you can't do something that's going to bankrupt the school. So, you know, the school can push back and say, well, it has to be reasonable. So you can't say, I want a med flight, you know, helicopter to come in if my kid's having a reaction. so, if something that's going to be an undue burden on the school, or if it fundamentally is going to affect the school. The way that they do things, they can push back. So it's, it's, it's, you have a lot of rights, but you have to advocate for them.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 14:26

Right. A lot of us, I think, you know, in this audience and then the circles that are talking about this, our parents, and we're talking about kids in schools, but it's important to note that this is, this is for anyone, not just kids in schools, that these apply.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 14:40

Oh yeah, I've had employees ask for accommodations who have food allergies. Yeah, so it's, it's many more places than just the schools.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 14:50

Can you talk about some of your cases? I'm, as a therapist, I always feel like I can't talk about anything, but are you able to share with us some of the interesting situations that you've worked with, or, that people have encountered and worked through

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 15:02

can't, most of my cases, unfortunately, are subject to confidentiality agreements, so I can't talk about them, but I can talk, in general about the kinds of, issues that I faced. one issue was a person who went into a pharmacy and asked for the ingredients in the prescription medication and wasn't given the ingredients a lot of pharmaceutical items have the prescription medication. inert ingredients that aren't disclosed. So I had a federal judge say that that could be a reasonable accommodation to make, to require a pharmacy to disclose all of the ingredients in a medication. Probably the, my most famous case is the Panera case with the peanut butter. That was a five year old. The parents ordered a grilled cheese sandwich and it came with peanut butter inside, hidden inside. Then another Panera down the street did a similar thing to another child. so you know, dealt with that case that got a lot of immediate attention.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 16:08

How about in terms of momentum, even if they, you know, have been in other areas, what do you think have been some big wins for the food allergy community in terms of people demonstrating that this should be accommodated or people should, you know, be able to expect this reasonably? What do you think is big changes or big wins?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 16:28

I, in Massachusetts, have gotten the only food allergy verdict from a jury, and we got a verdict of over 200, 000 with interest and penalties. I can talk about that case because that was a public case. So, what was interesting about that case, so it was similar to the Panera case in that it was a child who ordered a burrito and the parents said peanut allergy on the form, and it came with peanut sauce inside the burrito, so the child ate it and had a reaction, and it was a traumatic thing, and the parents got up on the stands and cried, explaining how they had to hold her down while she was crying to give her the EpiPen, and the defense tried every way to, uh, come up with a defense, and so one of the things they said first was, well, the child should have recognized, the five year old should have recognized that it was peanut sauce inside the burrito, which of course was, was ridiculous. Then he

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 17:24

Oh my gosh.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 17:25

father should have opened the burrito first and looked at it and saw that it was peanut. So, so again, why would you even be looking for peanut

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 17:33

Right.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 17:33

in a burrito when you

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 17:34

Sauce looks like sauce. You can't tell if it's, yeah.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 17:38

but the most ridiculous argument because we brought it on a products liability basis. So basically saying that the seller sold us a defective product. sold us something that was unsafe for the public, meaning this child who had the food allergy. so his argument was the child misused the burrito. And so saying, how can you misuse a burrito?, I mean, she ate it. I mean, she didn't like use it as a weapon.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 18:08

How do you misuse a burrito?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 18:10

I don't know. He never really explained how he thought she misused the burrito. Um,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 18:16

Oh, my gosh.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 18:17

um, yeah. so, uh, that was probably the craziest argument I've ever heard. Um, and I

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 18:24

Wow.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 18:25

brief about it, and, and I think in the brief I said something like, you know, she, she put it in the correct orifice, you know, like, I mean, she didn't, like, she,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 18:33

How do I put this into legal terminology?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 18:36

mean, it was just so ridiculous. Uh, so luckily he, he didn't win, and the jury didn't buy that. And then I, the judge kind of found it was a crazy argument.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 18:47

Oh, my gosh. I guess so. Well, I think you made a good point it's not just the expenses, the medical expenses that are incurred or getting accessibility, having our needs met, there's a really big emotional toll and time and trauma and loss associated with people having, incidents that should not have happened. can you talk about that and how that, how you approach that?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 19:10

Oh yeah, so I always make sure that when I have a case that I include emotional distress damages. For instance, this five year old, she said to her mother, am I going to die, you know, and that's, I mean, that's heartbreaking. It's, and it's real trauma. I think a lot of insurance companies that we deal with don't understand that because they have formulas like, oh, if you break a leg, it's worth, you know. Um, and then so they look at the medical records and they say, well, the, the child was in the hospital for four hours, so they say, that's nothing. So it's not worth much because it's only four hours of treatment and then they were completely recovered. And you had to explain, what that entailed, so in this case with the burrito, the parents had to pull the car over. The father had to pull, hold down his daughter who's screaming and give her an EpiPen in the car while she's saying, Daddy, am I going to die? And so if you don't account for that, you're missing the whole point of, you know, I mean, that's, that's real. And then you have, you have after effects. with my son, when he had that reaction in kindergarten, I hadn't told him that it was, his allergy was life threatening, because I thought he was too young to understand. So we get to the emergency room, he has the, frosting on his hands. And the emergency room doctor says, Oh my gosh, we've got to wipe that off his hands, you know, he could have died. And my five year old said, What? I could have died? And he didn't know.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 20:41

Great.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 20:42

was robbed the opportunity to explain it to him we were going to explain it to him when he was ready on our terms. and then that caused him emotional trauma. And so he didn't want to go back into the cafeteria after that. And, so he had to get some therapy over that. there's so much emotion involved in and it's not just four hours in a hospital.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 21:03

It's so complex. And I think you and I are here preaching to the choir because everyone listening, I know I can feel it in my body when you're talking about your son or these cases, because all of my times that it's happened to us in our house are still in there, right? Still affecting us emotionally. but how, how,

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 21:20

and we're expected to be doctors too. So I've had so many parents say I didn't give the epi. I feel, you know, I'm upset, you know, I'm, I'm I feel bad and it's like, well, don't feel, you know, we're not doctors, you

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 21:31

Right,

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 21:31

trained to be doctors. We don't, you know, we do the best we can

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 21:35

right. Nor are you a therapist, right? So for you to then know how to deal with how, okay, my son found this out in this way that was obviously not ideal. How do I, and luckily you were able to seek out some help. But yeah, there's so much on us that we're not really equipped to do or prepared to do, but it just seems so hard.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 21:54

beat

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 21:54

Yeah,

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 21:56

because we're, we're all doing the best we can and it's, it's a big burden.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 22:02

it is. It's a lot. And that's why it's good that we have each other to talk through it, which I'm curious what you think, um, you know, obviously on your end, you're working on it through these cases and establishing case law and precedent. But what do you think to get the world to understand this aspect of things? What do we need to do to have people get it? The, the emotional toll, this social emotional trauma baggage that we carry and the value or the cost of that. Do you have any insights on, on what will change the world's perception of that?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 22:35

Well, people have to realize that it is life threatening. So when you say allergy, they think, oh, you're just going to get it. You know, some hives, you're gonna sneeze. Um, and so one of the things that bothers me is, uh, jokes in the media about allergy. Um, and I'm thinking you wouldn't joke about somebody in a wheelchair, but why is it okay to joke about somebody's food allergies? Um, and and so that to me shows that people don't understand it and they think it's just something to be taken lightly. You know, we're not doing this to call attention to ourselves to get special treatment. You know, we're doing it because we're trying to keep our kids safe and alive.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 23:15

Absolutely. Yeah. I had a scenario, um, this summer where my kids did a wonderful camp, awesome staff, a theater camp. And we were sitting there in the audience. And my, older son who has the food allergies, was nervous about starting the camp the following week because he had just had two reactions like it was summer of chaos and not things going well and he's sitting there in the audience next to me watching his little brothers and there was a joke in a in an elementary school play about the big bad wolf having someone waving peanuts in his face and i need my epi pen and he's pretending on the stage that he can't breathe and i'm sitting there next to my son who's about to start the same camp the following week and it, you know, to watch it unfold. Then he didn't want to go the next week. And he got upset when I tried to teach them how to use his epinephrine injector, and he didn't want to wear his medical or bracelet. And people just think it's a joke and don't see how that unfolds in an actual individual persons. life, right? And that it affects them.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 24:12

yeah, yeah. And then they're teaching the elementary school kids that this is okay to joke about. Boy,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 24:17

Exactly.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 24:17

you reprimanded the camp afterwards.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 24:20

I, I am awaiting an opportunity to have what I hope will be a productive conversation because he, he refused to let me say anything before he went. I talked to him about it and I tried to be respectful of that now that he's getting older. Um, but I do want to talk to them about it because my point is these are great people. They were amazing staff. They love these kids like their own. It's so obvious. And yet, yes, here's my son walking in there thinking, Oh, this is a place where. People think food allergies are a joke and they don't take it seriously and they laugh at it and that I don't think is what they want to create and yet they are.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 24:54

Yeah, and that's where the education comes in. You have to let them know

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 24:58

Absolutely.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 24:59

and

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 24:59

Yes. Or I

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 25:00

Yeah.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 25:03

I'm kidding. Um, so one of the things you know you're talking about how the media portrays things. There's been this kind of campaign lately to have Snickers remove, this commercial, this campaign they have right about that. It's not flying without the peanuts. And I know you have talked and work on flying with allergies. So what's your take on on that specifically or just in general with with flying and food allergies?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 25:32

Yeah, like that campaign at all. And so I, peanuts are always associated with planes. So it started way back, I think it was back in the thirties or something when, um, a cheap airline, um, said our fares are as low as peanuts, like our peanuts. And then they, they started passing out peanuts as part of that campaign. And so that's how peanuts and flying got associated. So a lot of people think, Oh, I'm flying. I have to have peanuts. Um, and it's all because of this beautiful ad campaign, you know,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 26:10

It was effective.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 26:11

yeah,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 26:12

Well, and it's true.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 26:13

I mean, effective. Yeah, yeah,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 26:14

Yeah. Before I had kids with food allergies, I never ate peanuts, but I sure did when I would fly. You know, it's just like

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 26:21

it's just,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 26:21

part of the culture, right? Right.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 26:23

yeah, yeah. So, again, it's education. You have to, say that, that, this is dangerous. And, somebody with a peanut allergy shouldn't be sitting next to somebody who's eating peanuts. there was one study that showed, I think, I might be getting the figures wrong, but something, if 20 people open their peanuts simultaneously on a plane, there would be enough peanut residue to cause a reaction. So,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 26:49

But people don't believe that that's a possibility, right? Mm-Hmm.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 26:53

yeah, but, it's not something that's happening all the time though. To put it in perspective. So I do a lecture about flying with fruit allergies and I have a slide that shows a snapshot uh, the United States and how many planes are in the air. At one time and it's thousands

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 27:10

Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 27:11

the data that's showing that there's been reactions on planes. It's minuscule. I want people to understand that even though it's a real risk and it's, you know, it can be dangerous, you know, don't, don't let it stop you from flying. Because there's so many people flying with allergies and as long as you come prepared, you bring your EpiPens, you wipe everything down, you don't eat the food that's served. by the plane, bring your own food.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 27:38

Yeah. And I think some, there is that concern about airborne or contact reactions, but a lot of people also, that's the concern. How do I eat safely on the plane if I'm on a longer flight? And people aren't always allowed to bring food on or, or don't know how to navigate that. So what are, what are people's rights regarding that? I imagine that's really complicated legally.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 27:58

Well, you do have a right to preboard to wipe down the seat. So we do have a decision from the Department of Transportation that says that people with food allergies are considered a disability and do have a right to preboard like anyone else who has a disability. So that's been very, very helpful. what I've been seeing lately is that people who self identify as having a peanut allergy or some other allergy, if the pilot gets word of it, will say, well, I think you're too dangerous to fly. So you can't fly on this flight just because you have a peanut allergy.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 28:36

And they can do that.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 28:37

people have been turned away. So this is, this is, this is my next battle.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 28:43

Okay.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 28:44

So I do,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 28:44

us know.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 28:45

I do have a. I do have a case where somebody was, denied boarding. So the pilot can't, has to have a basis for his decision. If so, the pilot has the ultimate decision. If he really thinks the flight is unsafe, then he can do whatever he wants or she can do whatever, whatever they want sure the flight is safe, but they can't do it arbitrarily and they can't do it based on stereotypes. So they can't say just because you have a peanut allergy, you can't fly. But it's happening, unfortunately. So. So

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 29:15

coming soon. You're working on it.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 29:17

That's my next battle. I've got a

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 29:19

Okay.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 29:20

that.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 29:20

Well, thank you for that work. And thank you for clarifying. I do think it's important to put it in perspective what you're saying about, yes, we have these rights and take the steps to keep yourself safe, but also don't blow out of proportion, right? The likelihood of some, some of these things happening that we're afraid of with, airborne reactions and those things being very, very unlikely. Statistically.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 29:44

yeah, it is. It is a balance, I always say that. So there are some upsides. So, for instance, my son is now 24 he's lived with this his whole life, and I think it's made him empathetic. So he understands other people who struggle. So I think it's given him a lot of on people are struggling. I also think it makes him very responsible. So he's very cautious about what he eats. And so I think there are some good sides to raising a child with food allergies. It's not all doom and gloom. now he's at the stage where he's drinking alcohol though. So that's bothersome.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 30:22

Yeah, that's a tough one to navigate. I'm, my son's only 13, but we talk about that and how it changes your decision making and, and, you know, letting your guard down. How, do you want to talk more about what kind of how you're trying to guide him through that phase of life or?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 30:36

Well, you're telling him that he has to have his wits about him. He can't get to the point where he's so drunk that he doesn't know what he's doing and eating. And, um, also not all alcohol is labeled for the top nine allergens. So you have to be careful of what you're, what you're drinking.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 30:55

Right. And is that, there are different lab, food labeling laws for alcohol than there are for food. Is that why? Right.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 31:01

Yes. And I think there's a bill to change that brewing right now, brewing, uh, right now. But, um, I,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 31:12

That would be good.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 31:13

movement to change that. Yeah.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 31:16

All right, good. And I'm glad you mentioned that because I like, I like to ask everyone who's on the show about what, what are the pluses, you know, as a reminder, everyone has challenges in life. This is ours. And challenges in life are how we grow and become who we are. So I like that perspective from you as a, Parent of of an adult now and seeing kind of how he's turned out the beginning of how he's turned out, right?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 31:38

Yeah. Yeah.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 31:40

And you mentioned to me before a little bit about having when he was younger gotten your son involved in some of the advocacy work That you were doing. Do you want to share about that? Mm

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 31:49

Yeah. So right around the time when he had his reaction in kindergarten fan, which was the predecessor to fair.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 31:56

hmm.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 31:57

and Anaphylaxis Network did a, March to Congress. And so, they arranged for, um, the families and children to speak to their legislators. At that time, they were debating having the, uh, CDC guidelines on food allergies, because at that point there were no national guidelines about food allergies. this was a bill that was introduced to have the CDC come up with these guidelines. So my son, I sat down with him and we, he wrote a little speech and he put a suit on and he to the Capitol and he met our Congress people. Um, he met Nancy Pelosi. Yeah, yeah,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 32:38

cool.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 32:38

Um, yes, and he met like at that point in time, it was, uh, Representative Kaufman, who's now a senator, Kaufman. Um, and, uh, he gave his his talk about why it's important to understand food allergies. And I'm not sure how much of it he remembers. You could see it was so young. but I thought it was important that he, you know, that he participate and advocate for himself.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 33:08

I think it is too. Even if he doesn't remember the details, the feeling and the confidence and concept of this is important and important people are listening and just the idea of that I think sticks with us even when we don't maybe remember all the details.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 33:20

Yeah,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 33:22

So I'm curious, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw out the big one that's out there right now, and if you can't talk about it or don't want to talk about it, it's okay, but this business that is going on with Disney and this, this physician who died there and her husband suing Disney and them saying, I'll let you explain it, but what is your take? Everyone's kind of really, um, having big reactions to this. As it's unfolding,

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 33:45

it's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. Um, and I, I want to follow this up to see what the case, what the judge does. I think the attorneys actually, I think Disney changed its pleading now and is, is coming back on that because of all the backlash. But so what they were trying to say, and I think it's a, it's, not a good argument was that because he signed up for Disney, his family signed up for Disney plus,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 34:11

The spouse of the woman who passed away, right?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 34:15

and there's all these terms and conditions when you sign these things, you know, nobody ever reads them. You just say you click. I agree and go on. So one of those terms said that any dispute you have with Disney has to go to arbitration and can't be heard in a court. And arbitration is a private Resolution process usually paid by the defendant. So it's usually one sided. And so, and then, so I have a colleague who is being forced into arbitration on another case, totally unrelated to food allergies, he said they're asking for the plaintiff to have 20, 000 deposit. to start the arbitration. So, it's a very, so it's arbitration is not a good thing for plaintiffs. It's expensive, it's biased usually. So Disney was trying to say, instead of going to a court where you're going to get a fair opinion, you are agreed by signing this and the service that you, any dispute with Disney will be arbitrated. So that means we get to pick who hears it and it'll all be done privately. And

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 35:23

Just because he signed up for Disney Plus way before this ever happened, right? Nothing to do with the actual

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 35:29

do

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 35:29

incident.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 35:30

right, and it's nothing to do with the personal injury either. I mean, so, know, so with Disney if you were going to sue them, it would be maybe your power went out or you didn't get a good signal or something. You're not, you know, is a

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 35:42

Right,

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 35:42

injury. It's totally, totally irrelevant to, to that

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 35:47

right. Right, and unfortunately, I mean, not to lose the seriousness of this. It's a, it's a death. This woman. passed away from an allergic reaction. It's the gravity of that versus that response that people are feeling is so dismissive, um, is just shocking to all of us, I think.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 36:06

Oh, yeah, yeah. And as I said, I think they're feeling the backlash because they're withdrawing that argument, which they should.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 36:13

Yeah, so, and I know you can't predict where it will go, but you know, the other factor of this that people are discussing is that the restaurant that she ate in is actually part of Disney Springs, not the park, but yet Disney Springs is owned by Disney. So do you have a take on whether then that does fall back on Disney or do you think there's any legitimacy here to someone having responsibility for this woman passing away?

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 36:38

You'd have to see what the agreement was between the restaurant and Disney.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_123136: 36:42

Okay.

laurel-francoeur--she-her-_1_08-22-2024_123138: 36:43

it was really going to come down to that. Whether, you know, if, if Disney has some control over that restaurant, if they needed Disney's permission to operate there, it's really going to come down to, I think a contractual as to how much control Disney had over the restaurant. Cause if it was a truly independent restaurant and nothing to do with Disney or, and just, but just happened to be located, you know, There, it might, Disney might not have liability, but you'd have to see how the, how it's structured.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 37:15

I'm actually surprised the lawyers didn't focus on that argument rather than going to that crazy arbitration clause hidden in the Disney plus. Um, so, so they're going to have to look and they'd have to look if they have a franchise agreement or if they have some kind of whatever agreement they have, um, they'd have to look and see. to determine who was responsible.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 37:37

Definitely. Well, I think that what I'm trying to take away from this is hopefully what you said that the way that they're responding is reflecting upon the company and the business and that hopefully that means we have some sway as a community in terms of how businesses and companies are treating us and that that should matter. You know, I hope they're taking notice that we have some influence here and, I want, I want that to mean something, but

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 38:02

Yeah, absolutely.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 38:03

a case like this. Well, it'll be interesting to watch it unfold, but you know, obviously this is the worst case scenario I was talking about when there are deaths. Um, and I'm just curious if you can comment on that a little bit, not specifically to this Disney case, but just in general, when, when unfortunately they they're rare, but they do happen, these food allergy deaths. The legal perspective on that and what your take is.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 38:27

usually in cases where people have a reaction at a restaurant or similar liability is usually pretty clear. So they go in, they say, I have an allergy. The restaurant acknowledges. Yes, I know you have an allergy. You say, I need to be served food. That's free of my allergens. They agree to do that. And then they don't. In some cases, like Massachusetts, it's called strict liability, which means the restaurant is liable per se for what they serve. And if they serve something unsafe, they're liable for that. So usually these cases aren't an issue of, is the restaurant liable? Because almost always the restaurant is. If they've understood that there was an allergy and served them something that had the allergen. The fault is on them. So the next step is what are what we call the damages. How much is that worth? And, um, yeah, and, and the, the deaths are, are horrible. And, and I don't even know any amount of money can ever bring back a person or a child. And, and, um, so that that's, it's, it's sad. Uh,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 39:38

It's so tough. And I think in those cases, the point is, you know, often to bring the case to light so that we can protect other people so that we can try to prevent that from happening in the future. but what, what are our rights in terms of going to a restaurant and feeling like we can eat safely there?

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 39:55

Well, so the question always comes up. If I go to a restaurant, do they have to make me an allergen free meal if I go in? And I, so we talked about places have to accommodate. Um, but the question is for restaurants. So if you look at, um, what the DOJ, the Department of Justice who interprets the ADA regulations has said, is that if a restaurant doesn't typically alter their menu for other conditions, then they don't have to serve you an allergen free meal. So if it's a restaurant that never makes accommodations for anything, they could say, sorry, we're not going to give you. and you have no rights there because they're under no obligation to do that. the question then becomes, you know, what rights, other rights do you have? So for instance, there was a Massachusetts, ice cream store that had a sign outside that said food allergies. Don't come in.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 40:56

Yeah. We've

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 40:56

So,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 40:57

here too,

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 40:58

yeah, so the, so the question is, okay, some people say, well, that's great. Now, I know that it's an unsafe place and I'll stay away, um, but in my opinion, that's discriminatory. So you may not have to, you can go into the ice cream store and there may not be any ice cream that's free of nuts and that's okay, but I don't think they can tell you, you can't go in. I think that's where the discrimination comes in to say we don't even want you in the restaurant. Now, bringing in outside food is a whole other issue, whether you can bring in outside food and this. Not, we have one case, the Williamsburg case, um, that the judge said it could be a reasonable accommodation to allow somebody to bring in, but it was very fact specific, so we don't know, um, you know, in all cases, whether you'll be allowed to bring in, an argument is always the, the food code. People say, well, we can't have outside food because of the food code. Which is usually not a good argument, because the food code regulates what the restaurant serves, not what you bring into the restaurant.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 41:58

Right,

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 41:59

Um, yeah, so that's kind of unsettled right now,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 42:03

Okay.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 42:04

you can bring it. But I've heard of, you know, people bringing in food. So I have heard of a person who went to a wedding and brought in their own food and was told to eat it in the basement. Of the venue and couldn't participate in the wedding. Um,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 42:18

Jeez.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 42:19

and I, I, um, I think that's discriminatory, you know, I mean, you know, uh, yeah, so, yeah,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 42:32

Yeah, we have a long way to go, I think, is a good

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 42:35

we do, we do.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 42:36

What do you see as the next, you know, what's important next, if there are one or two things that you think really, should be tackled legally in terms of establishing something or changing something?

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 42:48

I think, yeah, about, about the restaurants, Making it so that maybe they do have to accommodate more and, you know, that the thing about, um, bringing in food. Um, there's another issue. So they're now having these, what are called, disability, I think, and I've forgotten the terminology, but disability cards. I don't know if you've seen that. So Disney now has these and other, uh, I think six, I don't know, sort of six flags or, but so parks. Universal. Yeah. So what parks are saying is if you have a disability, you can go on to this website because what they were afraid of is people feigning having a disability to cut lines. So, what they said is you go on to this website, and you disclose your disability to a third party. So it's not even, you know, Disney or Universal. It's a third party. So you don't know where this information is going. Upload your medical records. Upload permission for you to, for them to talk to your doctor. And then they determine whether you have a disability. And if you do, you get the card. And the card has a QR code where people can scan it and then see about your disability. So they put food allergies into that mix. So Universal would be basically saying, you'd have to show us this card that you really do have a food allergy before we're going to make any accommodations for you. And. To me, that's just wrong on so many ways. I mean, you shouldn't have to disclose your disability. You shouldn't have to give your medical records to a third party. And you don't know where they're going. You don't know who's making the determination as to whether that's good enough documentation, and then they can talk to your doctor. so this looks like it's, it's the trend now to require anybody who asked for accommodations to get one of these cards. And, um, I think that's, I think it's wrong.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 44:41

Yeah, I agree. It seems like an invasion and, and the burden on us to Disclose our private health information, which there are so many laws to protect, and then this is the opposite of that. Mm

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 44:52

Right, so if you have a service dog, the ADA specifically says you don't have to give the reason why you have a service dog. You don't have to disclose what condition you have that makes you have the dog. But in this scenario, you would have to, because you'd have to upload your medical records. So even if you wanted to bring in a service dog, you'd have to go through this process. Which is totally wrong.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 45:14

Yeah. And that brings up a good point that I always often think just in terms of socially what we seem to accept as valid and what we don't. And I, obviously service animals are wonderful and there's all this debate about service animals versus emotional support animals, and I'm not commenting on that. But in general, the public seems very supportive, right, of anyone who needs an animal to support them in some way. And yet, I find at least. It's not the same reaction of people who have food allergies and want an accommodation. And I just don't understand that. It just seems like it, it kind of goes, I guess that's the case, right? The law flows along with whatever the society deems important or valid at that point in time.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 45:55

But there's also the issue of, so I've had an issue of people who have dog allergies wanting to fly, and then there's a service dog on the flight.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 46:06

Mm hmm.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 46:07

And so who wins? So you have two disabilities now. You have somebody who has a, you know, a severe allergy to dander,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 46:15

Right.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 46:15

you have somebody who has a disability who needs the dog. Who wins? And usually the dog wins. Um, but so then that's, so that's a whole nother issue. What if you have two disabilities clashing, you know, both have equal rights, but they're opposite from each other. Um, so, or also the, yeah, the, in the instance where they'll say, well, this child, Well, can only eat peanut butter, you know, maybe the child needs to, a certain child needs to eat all the time for their condition, but then that's going to affect the person with food allergies. So, um, that hasn't really been explored yet. So,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 46:52

And it's tricky and I don't mean to, you know, discount anyone and what they need, but I feel like we don't have this perspective of how do we make this work for everybody? Like, everybody deserves to be safe, not which one of these wins, right? Um, or whose, whose need is more severe or, or, or more serious It's

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 47:09

and, and, and there isn't a constitutional right to peanut butter.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 47:14

Right.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 47:14

I know a lot of people say, well, my kid has to eat the peanut butter and you can't take it away from me. You can't take it away. So there was one Michigan case where a judge said, no, they can at school. If the school determines that having peanut butter in the classroom is unsafe. For a child with a disability, then they can absolutely tell you not to bring it in. And it's not a property right. It's not a constitutional right. It's merely keeping somebody safe because they have a disability. Um, so,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 47:44

it's so tricky.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 47:45

but yeah, it's hard because I think, and that's, I think where some of the backlash comes in because we're always sort of asking other people to look out for us. And I think that's kind of maybe where the resentment comes in. Um, you know, So we're not only just you're avoiding it, but you're asking me to avoid it, you know, and I think that's where the education again has to come in.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 48:07

I agree. And I think if people understood the seriousness of it, they would have a little bit more compassion, but I still think there's, like you said, there's this perception that it's a joke. It's a laughable thing. We have that picture as if it's comical, not a life threatening, genuinely dangerous thing. I think if more people understood the severity, I would like to think that they would be more compassionate in terms of, of helping.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 48:29

And then a lot of times, so you'll see in comment sections, people will say, well, if you're that allergic, don't go out, you know, don't go to the restaurant, don't go to the amusement park, but that's not realistic either. I mean, we shouldn't have to live. In a bubble and not participate like every other human being does,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 48:46

Right.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 48:47

know, um, so yes, we are extra careful and we do different things, but it doesn't mean we have to just sit at home and can our, our vegetables like my pediatrician wanted me to do, you know, I mean, we have to live in the world and we have a right to live in the world,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 49:03

to. Exactly.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 49:05

yeah, and participate and enjoy things and, you know, so, um, but you do get a lot of that, well, then if you're that severe, don't fly or don't, you know, Go to a restaurant.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 49:15

Yeah. I love that you said that. We have a right to participate in the world and live a full life and not just have to hide out, in order to protect ourselves. That's, that's our right.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 49:26

Yes. Yeah. And at school, of course, you have, you know, you have a right to a free education,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 49:31

Right. Right.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 49:33

so you can't say, well, just stay home because they're eating peanut butter in the cafeteria and don't get an education. I mean, that's not. You know, that's not acceptable at all. So there has to be a way to make it work. And I think education is the key.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 49:47

I agree. What else haven't we talked about that you wanted to touch on or that you think is important to mention?

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 49:54

It'll take time because, you know, the law really hasn't caught up in some ways to this growing need. So it'll take time, but we'll get there.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 50:04

What's the best way for people to participate or contribute to that movement in terms of legal advocacy? What can we do who aren't in your shoes?

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 50:13

So there's a lot of nonprofits that do a lot of advocacy work. So there's FAIR, there's AFA, the Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America. there's FACT, F A A C T, there's also ANMA, Allergy and Asthma Network. And they'll have things where they'll send blurbs to people about current laws that are So, yeah. Being considered and saying right to your congressman so for instance, and my has a day at Capitol Hill. So I did that this past year. So we went to Capitol Hill. so there's ways you can participate. Even though you're not a lawyer, but you can still have, make your voice heard. There are ways to do it. Petitions. A lot of people, do online petitions. Those seem to have a lot of change. org type petitions. Another issue also is, um, Sesame. I don't know if you've, we were talking about recent issues, how Sesame has been added as the ninth allergen,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 51:07

Yes.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 51:07

bakeries are adding it to products. that never had it before. So it's making it so that there's virtually nothing a person who has a sesame allergy can eat, even though it may not contain sesame. I'm a member of the Council of Food Protection, which is a group that advises the FDA. And so, I brought up this issue with sesame. And so they wrote a letter to the FDA explaining this problem and saying that they need to deal with it. So the FDA now is. is trying to crack down. But the problem is it's legal for them to add the sesame. There's no, it's not against the law, but it's against the spirit of the law by adding sesame.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 51:45

Right. And for

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 51:46

So

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 51:47

the spirit of the law is to add sesame to the top nine because it's so prevalent, and I, I, we deal with sesame allergy in my house, so yes, I've been among those infuriated I assume it's money saving, right? To avoid all of the precautions that they would need to do to safely have a product that doesn't have the sesame in it. They just added the sesame on purpose to sidestep the spirit of this law,

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 52:08

yeah, and what I was told is that it comes down to cleaning the way that the machines handle Bakery items that have sesame and that sesame is so small that they can't guarantee that they can totally clean the machine. So there's going to be residue. And then if it turns out that that's enough residue that it has to be declared as an allergen and they don't, then they're in trouble. Let's say that was, if, if that's the solution everybody took, then there'd be nothing anybody could eat. I know the FDA is also looking into the precautionary labels. for food allergies, may contain because there's no regulation about those at all.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 52:46

Yes, so, and can you speak about that? Because a lot of people I find still don't understand that may contain shared facility. Those are not legally required, right?

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 52:57

No, and there's no legal mission. There's no legal definition. So what does made in a facility mean? There's no standard definition. One company could call it something or some or some company call something. I mean, there's just no regulation. I think there was a study that showed something like up to 20 percent of foods listed as as may contain did actually contain the allergen in it. if you're going to use a may contain state, it has to mean something and you can't just slap it on there and to say, well, I don't want to be sued. So I'm just going to say everything may contain.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 53:32

right. And is that another topic then that the council that you're a member of is advising the FDA? Is there any movement or momentum building in that area or is that not quite? In the works. Yeah.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 53:44

I think it's I think it's in the works. Yeah.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 53:48

Yeah. I think back to what I was saying before the, what I try to look for silver linings. I think the plus side of this, is how we vote with our dollars and how much momentum the companies who are doing really good labeling and really clear about their practices are, are thriving because we trust them. And if we trust them, we're all on board or as a community, right. In terms of,

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 54:09

Oh, yeah, we were the most loyal customers they'll ever get, a lot of people like me tip extra when you go out because you realize what they're going through. So, you know, we, we are good customers.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 54:22

We are. Absolutely. Sometimes I feel helpless about, you know, the way that things are and not being able to change it. I always come back to that, um, idea of I can vote with my dollar, right? If I can't, if I can't influence the law directly or make it happen quickly enough, then I can, I can vote with my dollar. We have to have faith that the legal process works slowly, but there is change, the change has been slowly moving in the right direction for years. And it's so good to know there are people like you that are working to make that happen and keep it, keep it happening. Thank

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 54:54

so going back to your daughter, so for a restaurant, if they don't serve, they decide we're not going to serve you because you have a food allergy. Well, now they haven't just missed out on your business. They've missed out on your family's business. And then you tell a friend and they tell a friend. So the restaurant may think, well, we're just, we're avoiding one issue because we're just saying, okay, you can't eat here, but now you've just lost instead of one customer, you could have lost 30, 40 customers. So it really pays to pay attention to us.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 55:23

Yeah. Yeah. And I wish, I mean, maybe they know, you know, we have, we have our little networks where we say, where can I go to eat with this? And if there's someone who's doing it well, they are going to be known about. And if someone does it poorly, they are also going to be, uh, we're just going to spread quickly among us because we're a tight knit crew.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 55:41

There used to be a website, I don't know if it's still, Operational Allergy Eats.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 55:45

Yes.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 55:46

so it was done by Paul Antico, who's a friend of mine here in Massachusetts. I don't know if he's still maintaining it, but it was sort of like a Yelp for, uh, restaurants in regards to food allergies. So,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 55:58

believe it is. And I think there are a couple of spinoffs and I know we have a local, a little, uh, some local resources in our area, which is great because yeah, we want to give our money to the people who are to help us.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 56:11

sure, sure.

56:13

Speaking of wanting to give our money to the people who are out there working hard to try to help us. You have several books that we can use as resources to help us when we're flying or to understand our rights. I'd love for you to tell us more about those.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 56:28

One thing I tell people a, a trick I have about, um, about airlines is people will say, which airline is better for food allergies? Is there one that's better than another? So when people complain about being mistreated for food allergies or allergies on a flight, they file reports with the Department of Transportation. And most of the time, those reports just get filed and don't get answered. They just, because they're just overwhelmed. But, the, the website for the Department of Transportation keeps track of the complaints. The number of complaints. So, they'll have a column. So you, for every, every airline. So you can look and say, oh, American Airlines this month got 10 allergy complaints. Delta this month got 3 allergy complaints. United this month got. You know, a hundred allergy complaints, and then just using that, you could say, okay, maybe I want to pick the airline that has the fewest allergy complaints. Um, I mean, it's not, it's not, you know, it's not scientific. It's not guaranteed because a lot of people have problems and don't write about it. But, um, but that I think is a good way to look at, cause you can kind of get a, Oh, if one airline is making, Getting more complaints than another. You probably don't want to fly that airline.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 57:48

absolutely.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 57:48

Yeah. So, the food allergy flying book, I wrote because I was just doing research for myself about flying. And I thought this is what people should know. so for instance, they should know that a lot of things are tied to the, the airline Appropriations Act. So for instance, airlines are prohibited from making, regulations about peanuts. Because Way back a few, several years ago, a congressman from Georgia tied, airline funding to peanuts and said, if an airline tries to make buffer zones or ban peanuts or to make other regulations about peanuts, then they'll lose their funding. That was was enacted. And then in 2010, I believe it was the F. The I mean, the D. O. T. Was finding that there was rise in complaints about peanut allergy, so they proposed, uh, proposed rulings and they put it out to the public and had the public comment and said, what do you, what would you think about a ban on peanuts? What would you think about a buffer zone on peanuts? What would you think about this? And immediately the same Congress people came back and said, wait a minute. Uh, remember we have this, you'll, you'll lose your funding, uh, DOT if you require, uh, if you require them to make these. So. Immediately, the O. T. pulled down the questionnaire. So, that's something that people don't understand is that, you know,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 59:22

was the spirit of that in the first place of connecting the funding to not

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 59:27

peanut farmers

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 59:29

Oh, they have a big

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 59:30

and protecting

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 59:31

them.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 59:34

peanuts on the planes.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 59:36

Interesting.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 59:38

The ADA doesn't apply on flights. There's a separate,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 59:41

Oh.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 59:42

separate law called the Air Carrier Access Act, which does require airlines to accommodate for disabilities and food allergies, but you can't sue. So,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 59:53

They have certain protections from the law in the spirit of providing a service that the public needs. Is that the kind of

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 59:59

so when Congress wrote the law, they didn't provide for a private remedy. So a lot of courts have said, because Congress didn't specifically say private people have a right to sue, then we're going to say you don't have a right to sue, because Congress didn't say that. So there was an airline bill, I don't know, maybe three, four, five years ago, where they were going to, that was one of the things they were going to change. To have Congress actually add in there that you can sue under the Air Carrier Access Act, but it didn't, it didn't go anywhere.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:00:30

Okay. Interesting. So what else then in your book, we're talking about, your Flying with Food Allergies book. What else, will people learn about in there that's helpful if they want to check that book out?

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:00:43

So I have tips about, flying with food allergies. I have, uh, studies. So for instance, there was a study, very small study, but it showed that something like 60, and again, I, because I don't have the data in front of me, I may be misquoting the numbers, but something like 60 percent of all airline trays have MRSA on them.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:01:04

Wow.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:01:05

Yeah.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:01:06

I didn't want to know, Laurel. Thank you.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:01:08

Yeah, so it shows you the importance of wiping down. So even if you don't have food allergies, I mean, you may want to wipe everything down before you sit down

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:01:21

Oh

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:01:21

because you don't know what's there. Yeah,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:01:24

Wow.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:01:25

yeah.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:01:26

So, and you don't only have that. You wrote a preschool allergy handbook

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:01:30

so it was written by me and, Gina Manette Lee, who is an allergy mom and special ed teacher. And, she's done an awful lot of work in the food allergy space. I think she was even advocating before I was. And so she wrote the perspective from a teacher's perspective. And then I wrote about the legal perspective. And so she and I were going around and giving, um, talks, you know, to preschools. We were educating preschools too, about what are best practices. So this is sort of like a handbook for a preschool. to give them ideas on how to keep kids safe, how to make an action plan, you know, things to realize that infants don't have the right terminology to describe allergic reaction. So they might say something like, uh, you know, there's a frog in my throat or something, and to realize that that It might be indicating they're having a reaction,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:02:21

Mm hmm.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:02:22

because we felt that there was no guidance for preschools. So a lot of the guidance that had come out was for elementary schools and high, but there wasn't anything at that time for preschool. So we said, we want to fix that. So we wrote this book together.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:02:35

Wonderful. Thank you. Yeah. And it's it's I assume it's also different because preschools aren't their private entities, right? Not part of the public school system education

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:02:43

no, so there's still, they're usually, unless they're religious, they're still subject to ADA.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:02:49

Okay,

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:02:50

And some of them get funding. So some of them, just made in head start or federal lunch program. So sometimes they're under 504. But the issue becomes you're not guaranteed a preschool education like you are an elementary school education. So that's where the difference comes in. So, um, in schools under 504, so like an elementary school, there's what's called child find. So the schools have an affirmative obligation to find any child that they think. may need accommodations and reach out to them and evaluate them to see whether accommodations would be appropriate. So that's something that the law imposes on public schools like elementary, middle school, high school, because it's mandatory. You're guaranteed. what's called FAPE, a free and appropriate public education. You're not guaranteed a preschool education, and you're not guaranteed a college education. So even though they still have to accommodate, the rules for accommodating switches in those cases because, so for instance in college, Because you're not guaranteed a college grad, uh, college education like you are, you know, uh, uh, then, um, so you have, so they make the college students self identify. So child find goes away in college. So, The college student then has to self identify about the allergy and, and get the accommodations, whereas in otherwise, before that, it's the school's responsibility. So with preschools, it's sort of the same thing because you're not guaranteed a free and appropriate Preschool education. There's the same laws, but they're applied differently. So that's why we wanted to write the book.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:04:30

There's just so many facets of it that I think the average person doesn't realize of what goes into how things play out. But while we're on the topic. And if you have time, I feel like I could talk to you for hours and hours. But is there anything else you want to add about the aspect with college? Because I know a lot of people who are going into that. And some schools are known for being great. And I've had some People have really bad experiences with that and not be clear on what their rights are when they make that transition.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:04:56

Yeah, I'm finding colleges are all over the map. I've represented some people who have had real problems. Sometimes it's hard to get those problems resolved again because you don't have the same exact rights as you do. Um, so, for instance, my son went to Clark University, which is a small university. One of the things that we liked about it is it had one cafeteria. So he got to know the cafeteria staff. They got to know him. they had an allergen free section of the cafeteria. he said usually it was one or two meals that were pretty bland and not, not interesting. But they did have that. And then also every dorm had a kitchen. So those were things that that we looked for, and we felt more comfortable there as opposed to a larger school that might have several cafeterias and may not have access to a kitchen, And then, another thing. So with colleges that the kids are at 18 or than adults. So it's up to them to talk about the accommodations, not the parent. So you've lost your right now to talk about, so it's really up to the child. What I tell parents too is, so if you're at a college, go to the hospital near the college and sign a release form so that the hospital can talk to the parent. Because if your child has an allergic reaction and gets admitted to the hospital and you don't know about it, The hospital can't call you as a parent unless they have written permission.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:06:27

That's right. So they'll keep that on file. They'll, they'll create a file and keep that. That's a brilliant idea because yes, so many with so many factors, parents find that when their kids are off, like, Oh, they can't speak to me without a release now that the

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:06:41

Yeah,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:06:42

not a child.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:06:43

so be proactive and do that ahead of time, have the child sign it, and then that way, if God forbid they have to go to the hospital, the hospital's not forbidden from, I mean, now the kid could say in the hospital, yes, I give you permission, but if they're not able to speak, um, then the parent would have no idea.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:07:01

Great point. Thank you for sharing that. I want to mention too, you're, you're, you have three books, right? The other one is how to advocate for your food, allergic child.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:07:10

Yeah, that's just basically how tips on dealing with your school district. I wrote that a long time ago, so I might want to update it because I think a lot has changed. I mean, I wrote that probably in, I don't know, 2007, 2008. So I probably should update that because I think a lot has changed. But yeah, just, just tips for how to advocate and, I think the biggest thing that I tell parents is that, you're there again to educate the school about your child. So you're not there to fight with them. You're not there to, cause a problem. You're there to basically educate them this is what my child needs and let me explain why they need this. Um, and I think if you can think about what the reason the school is giving for why they're doing a certain thing and have a counter for that to explain, so, you're not going in there and you're going to fight the school. I'm going to, you're going in there. I'm going to work with you and explain why your reasoning is wrong. if you approach it as, I'm teaching them and telling them why this is important, that goes off a lot better than demanding and saying, these are my rights and I deserve this and that. I think it goes over better.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:08:19

Great point. I agree. And I have found that in, in many cases that, we want our kids to be safe or we want ourselves to be safe. and it shouldn't fall on us, but it does if we can have conversations in a way that opens the line of communication and educates and informs people versus, Making it into where we're on opposing sides and we're working against each other because in most of the scenarios where these things happen, we all want the same thing, even if you just walk into a restaurant, not nobody, you or the wait staff or the kitchen or the owner wants someone to have a severe allergic reaction in their restaurant. Or in schools or like with the summer camp that I talked about, that again, it's a wonderful program. I know they want to do the right thing, but the way that I approach it could really affect the direction that that turns in.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:09:02

Yeah. Yeah.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:09:04

Well, where is the best place? I'll list everything in the notes, but tell everybody where the best place for them to buy your books and to find you, uh, your website's really easy to find. It's just, it's

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:09:13

Yeah.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:09:13

allergy lawyer, right?

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:09:15

Yeah, yeah, or or Frank or law. com. my books are on Amazon. you could also get them from my website.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:09:23

Thank you so much. I feel very encouraged talking to you. Like I said, it's just reassuring to know that, there are definitely those of you working on our side and, and that is encouraging to know when we feel helpless that we aren't the ones who can do all of those things.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:09:39

Well, thank you. Thank you. It's, uh, it's my, I feel it's my life's work to, to do this and, and I hope my son is proud of me.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:09:48

Aw, I'm sure he is. I, I, if, if you have time for one more question, do you

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:09:53

Sure.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:09:53

Um, cause my podcast focuses on how we're managing our anxiety and our, our trauma around food. And obviously as a parent, your story to find your kindergartner in the corner, having an anaphylactic reaction is about as traumatic as it can get. Can you talk about. How turning this into your work has, has influenced your journey with that, with your trauma and your, your struggle with the part of navigating this.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:10:19

It's empowering. Because you feel helpless, when you see your child struggling, you feel helpless. Like I said, we're not doctors. We don't know what, what's going on really. It makes me feel like I can help other people. I can make a difference. maybe I can turn some things around, make it easier for the next people coming along. I feel like, okay, at least we've paved the way for other people. So some good came out of it. We weren't just caught in the trauma. We turned the trauma into something positive

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:10:51

Absolutely. Thank you for doing that. And yes, in your case, especially there's, there's so much that you can see that, a positive that extends beyond just your situation and your son. I appreciate your time so much and you have been so kind to me. Thank you for being so generous and, willing to spend so much time. I, I appreciate it so much

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:11:09

education is the, is the, is the key, you know, education is really the key. What's going to help all of us.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:11:15

It is.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:11:16

So,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:11:17

thank you for having such a big part in that.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:11:19

And I'm glad that you have a positive bent because I think that's missing in a lot of the food allergy world.

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:11:24

It

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:11:25

There's a lot of blood. And yeah,

squadcaster-1gff_3_08-22-2024_132146: 1:11:27

Absolutely. And I think that's part of why I like the question that I just asked you. Like, we have to do something with it. Brene Brown is one of my favorite authors. She's a, researcher who talks about all these, emotional, social, emotional things. And she says that, anger is a good thing. Catalyst, but not, not good company. So I feel like I'm trying to take that spin of using the anger to motivate us to do something, but not just to sit and dwell with it because that doesn't get any of us anywhere.

squadcaster-h9j7_1_08-22-2024_132148: 1:11:53

no, no, it doesn't. It doesn't help our kids.

1:11:57

Well, if you do want to help here are three action steps you can take today to move forward with the abundance of information that Laurel shared with us. Number one by laurels books, flying with food allergies. And how to advocate for your food allergic child, both available on Amazon or on her website, the allergy lawyer. Dot com. Number two. And September Laurel did a free workshop with fair called protecting food. Allergic students in schools know your rights and the replay is available online. Number three. Check the section affairs website called know your rights there's information on topics, including school guidelines. Access to epinephrin restaurants and even becoming an advocate. If you're interested. Links to all of these are in the show description. This podcast is for educational purposes only, is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. If you have specific questions or concerns about your health or a medical condition, please consult your allergist or other qualified health care provider. I'm Dr. Amanda Whitehouse. And until we chat again, remember, don't feed the fear.