#31 Creating a Healthy Food Foundation with Children's Dietitian Lucy Upton

In this episode, host Dr. Whitehouse welcomes dietitian-author Lucy Upton @childrensdietitian to explore developing healthy relationships with food. Topics discussed include:

• Nervous system–informed eating strategies
• Safe and science-backed early allergen introduction
• The gut-brain-axis, vagus nerve, and mental health connection 
• Medicalization of food and how to combat it
• Lucy's "3 Fs" for encouraging balanced eating habits in children

Whether you're already navigating food allergies, trying to prevent them for your little ones, or simply aim to feed your family with more calm and confidence, this encouraging conversation offers science-based guidance and practical tools.

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 Where to find Lucy:
 On Instagram and TikTok @childrensdietitian
 Experts on infant & child feeding & nutrition | The Children’s Dietitian
The Ultimate Guide to Children's Nutrition a book by Lucy Upton - Bookshop.org US

Special thanks to Kyle Dine for permission to use his song The Doghouse for the podcast theme!
www.kyledine.com

Find Dr. Whitehouse:
-thefoodallergypsychologist.com
-Instagram: @thefoodallergypsychologist
-Facebook: Dr. Amanda Whitehouse, Food Allergy Anxiety Psychologist
-welcome@dramandawhitehouse.com

Transcript

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Lucy Upton, MNutr 0:00

It's such a fine balance, isn't it? There's stuff you do want parents to know and be informed about, I'm never gonna sit here as a dietician and judge the choices parents make for their children. But I think it is really, really important that parents are, able to make an informed choice and informed without bias, informed without, the packaging, the people who want to sell you their supplements, you know, without the bias because all of that feeds into it and people don't realize it's that fine line of going, here's the information. But also, you know, that doesn't mean that's what you need to do all of the time. Let's remember food is also about, joy and connection

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (2) 0:32

Welcome to the Don't Feed the Fear podcast, where we dive into the complex world of food allergy anxiety. I'm your host, Dr. Amanda Whitehouse, food allergy anxiety psychologist and food allergy mom. Whether you're dealing with allergies yourself or supporting someone who is, join us for an empathetic and informative journey toward food allergy calm and confidence..

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 0:54

Welcome back to our summer season of Don't Feed the Fear, where we are starting some conversations about choices, the choices that we make, the choices that we lose, and the choices that we sometimes have to intentionally reclaim when we're managing food allergies. I wanted to introduce you to today's guest early in the season because I think she brings a lot to the table that can help us rewrite and reframe some difficult perspectives and experiences that we have around food. I'm so honored to have chatted with Lucy Upton, whose approach is a beautiful reminder that even within the limits of dietary restrictions, we still have plenty of choice. Much of it not even having to do with what the food we're putting in our mouths is. Her warm, balanced philosophy shows that managing allergies doesn't have to feel like deprivation or fear, and we don't have to have a negative relationship with food. We can find a path toward nourishment, connection, and joy. Lucy Is a leading pediatric dietician and nutritionist in the UK with a huge social media following and an amazing new book that just came out, if you already follow her, you know how well informed and accessible and practical her work is. Lucy's very grounded in the experiences that we are actually having related to food, nutrition, allergies, eating difficulties, growth concerns, and that shows in the way that she communicates with us. That's why I was so excited for her book and it did not disappoint. Thank you so much for being here to join me. Lucy, I just finished your book this weekend. I'm so impressed. I want to tell everybody all the wonderful things about it, but I would love to let you start, by introducing yourself to everybody and telling us about this great new book that's out

Lucy Upton, MNutr 2:30

Hello everyone, and so lovely to speak to you honestly. Such a pleasure. So my name's Lucy. Um, I'm a children's dietician. I've always been a child's dietician. I've been working over 15 years now in clinical practice. Um, I have, I suppose by what we would consider in the UK a fairly typical start in that I, um, spent a long time working for our national health service. So I did over 10 years for our National Health Service, um, always working with children in a range of different settings. I did a lot of food allergy, which is one of the reasons I'm here today. Um, but actually did a lot of, of wide range of clinical nutrition in some of our biggest children's hospitals in the uk. So kind of have a very sort of that hands-on acute experience and worked with lots of families, but alongside that have always, um, I suppose like had. For want of a better term, had my finger in other pies in terms of recognizing that reaching lots of parents, you know, has a different method these days. So, um, I think it was lockdown actually, um, where I started an Instagram page because I thought, oh my God, where are parents gonna get all of their information from now? They can't access anybody. So that was kind of the birth of the children's dietician really, and just wanting to get evidence-based information out there for parents. Um, in a particularly noisy environment. I was finding parents with the rise in social media were getting more confused, more conflicted. Um, and I suppose also born out of the fact that, particularly here in the uk, because of the way our healthcare system works, had a lot of very vulnerable parents. So children with, you know, suspected allergies, babies with feeding difficulties, you know, really stressful feeding experiences on very long waiting lists to be seen by our. Um, health service and I, you know, essentially how it works in the UK is if you are going to go sort of privately in the uk, you, some people will have insurance often through work, um, but most people don't. And so most people, you know, have to either pay for that themselves or they have to wait. And, you know, I'll never forget a mum messaging me once being like, oh, I've just had a, you know, really, really complex allergy baby. And I've just had the letter through the, the wait's 94 weeks and I was even my header. I was like, that's like, hold on a minute. That's like nearly two years. Which is just wild, isn't it? So yeah, so, so was born the children's dietician. And so I do sort of work online. I do my own clinics, I work at specialist feeding clinics, I consult with brands in food industry. I, I'm very lucky, I get to really diversify kind of what the role of a dietician does. And yes, a couple of years ago, was it a year ago, about a, a year and a ago, I was approached by a publisher here in the UK to write a book, um, which kind of set the wheels in motion for, um. My book, the Ultimate Guide to Children's Nutrition, which I wanted to do something a little bit different. I very much realized for parents that there's some brilliant books out there, some really wonderful books about key timeframes with, feeding, like there's lots of books about weaning and introducing solids. And there's certain books around kind of managing specific scenarios We have an abundance here. I'm sure it's the same over there of like recipe books. And I, you know, it was like I could do this, but actually what I wanted was a bit of a, um. I suppose a bit of a handbook for those first five years, not only because we recognize that's probably one of the most formative times for sort of establishing children's kind of health and relationship with food. Um, but also 'cause especially, you know, I've since become a mum, everything's changes so quickly, doesn't it? You are like, you just about got to grips with milk feeding and they're like, oh, hello, now it's time to introduce solids. And you're sort of getting your head around solids and you finally got a little one who might be eating and exploring food and then bam, the toddler is, and you're like, whoa. So I wanted something that came, that came with, that answered all the questions that was very much driven by my community. Actually. I, um, you'll have seen at the back of every section there's a common q and a, and that's from years, five years, nearly six I think, of doing every Sunday pretty much. Um, doing a q and a on Instagram, I just got all of those amalgamated, the things people ask me time and time again and I was like, if one parents asked, in fact if, you know, 25, 30, a hundred parents have asked, then many more want the answer to this. So I threw it all in a book. So very long, convoluted. Hello?

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 6:22

Thank you. And I didn't wanna try to sum it up i've been struggling to try to find, to put into words how your book is different from everything that's out there. So thank you for doing that for me. I

Lucy Upton, MNutr 6:31

got well versed in this now.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 6:33

There's so much of that that I wanna pull out, but you said something that I think is so important about that, how things change so quickly and it's the half-life of medical information, especially with allergies, just shrinking and shrinking and, and then that's how mothering is. As soon as you finally settle into a phase, like, oh, I've got this, and now I know the routine Yeah, things change again. So with food on top of that, it's so difficult to manage. I'm so sad for myself, but I didn't have this when I was going through it because messages along the same lines actually. Yes. And I want everyone to know that, this is a book for everybody that will leave you prepared whether allergies or not are in your future when you need the information, which is before it happens, not after your child has had a reaction and

Lucy Upton, MNutr 7:16

you're panicking that that was what I wanted. I wanted something preemptive, I wanted, you know, I get, so for example, the toddler years and eating habits in the toddler years is a really, um, common area of concern for lots of my parents. Like lots of parents in fact. And I was like, I just want a book that's gonna like set out what's going on for your child's development. Like, why are these things happening? Because the Y always helps, doesn't it? It takes away from that. God, there must be something wrong. I must be doing something wrong to. Oh, right. I almost can anticipate, and if I an, if I know that this is gonna happen, I'm not gonna jump to fix, which is so often our instincts as a parent, isn't it? Like, oh my god. This is different. This is worrying, is this normal? Oh my gosh, I must fix it. And actually, um, therefore in the hope that actually it just gives lots of parents peace of mind, it gets somewhere to turn to. I sort of said at the end, I hope it's well thumbed and passed on. And, you know, that it's, it's been there in those, not just for the preemptive, but also for those tricky moments. And it that comes to allergies too. You know, I made sure I covered lots in there about introducing allergens to babies and why we would do it, but also pragmatically, not just why we do it, but like, here's some ideas of how to do it. Here's some foods you can keep in. This is what you might do. Like very pragmatically, sort of step by step and you know, what do reactions look like and clearing up. Also, I think quite a lot of that misinformation that's surrounds food allergies in those early years, which, you know, after working in this area for a very long time, I sometimes smile. I'm like, is this, am I, I'm still hearing the same thing I was hearing 15 years ago. It takes, it takes in the same way, like you were talking about the half-life of information takes a long time for some things to just disappear, doesn't it? Yes.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 8:51

Yes, unfortunately. So for example, one of the most important things that, that you talk about in your book that was not information that was available to me is how important it is in reducing, food allergies, is the early introduction of foods and that information is out there, but how to do this and the way you set up your book and the support you give around it, removing the judgment and the should and all of the, the fear that we feel around it, right? Because it becomes, it becomes a scary thing. Oh my gosh, if I don't give my child peanut butter by this many months, they're going to develop an allergy. That's what I think people hear. Yeah. And that's why I think it doesn't disseminate the way that we want it to or be incorporated the way that it ought to be.

Lucy Upton, MNutr 9:32

No, and I, yeah, and I still think there is, I still think there is fear. You know, I still think even with all that information, and I kind of like these, these, these different groups of parents, it's a sort of. Parents who sort of still haven't got access to that information because they've been misinformed by even other health professionals who've worked a long time. And this stuff takes a long time to trickle down. You know, I remember being sat in a lecture here in the UK when some of the big pinnacle studies that came out about allergy prevention were first being discussed, like two health professionals. And everyone's mind, like the silence in the room. Like, and one of the first questions from a pediatrician was, how are we gonna, how are we getting this to public health level and how are we doing it quickly? And the reality is, is that we're 12 years on, you know, and we're like still feeding this information, so some people are still going to get it after they need it, or you know, and that isn't anyone's fault necessarily, but it is important what, you know, as to why it's really important to get kind of widespread, you know, information out there that's accessible to families and as you say, supportive, not judgmental. Um, and I think also, you know. Challenging some of those fears, you know, if we're talking specifically about kind of introducing food allergens during weaning, which by the way, it is totally normal to be worried about. I was worried about it and I've been there, done it, got the t-shirt in terms of giving the advice. I could do it probably in my sleep, you know, but I was still like, I think I'll just call my sister and see if she wants to come around today. You know, because my husband was away. I think, you know, and even though my logical brain, my adult logical brain, like prefrontal cortex, they aren't fully online, can say risk of anaphylaxis. Very low. Like very low. And that's what most people are worried about, right? A really big reaction first time. And you know, and also I would know what to do if she was having a reaction. And I'm also very confident with knowing what I'm looking for and how to like set, set about my day. My emotional brain still took over, right? It worked so much faster, so much faster, not necessarily logical at all. And it was like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, imagine something horrendous happens. And I, you know, I think it's then about recognizing the ways. I think sometimes as parents, we can forget that sometimes one of the best things we can do for our kids is think about how we emotionally reinforce ourselves in certain moments and with certain things because, you know, the village isn't there necessarily like it used to be. I don't feel, um, that might be my personal experience, but certainly the experience I hear of lots of parents and lots of mothers. Um, and I also think, I dunno if you agree that we sort of, um, people don't ask for help as much anymore. People are reluctant. Even I am, you know, even are reluctant to say, I need to lean on you. I need to ask for some help. Can you come and, 'cause everyone is busy and has their own lives and thinks that, you know, actually they don't wanna be a burden. I hear that a lot. I don't wanna be a burden. Mm-hmm.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 12:16

I agree. I see that so much. I, went to a baby shower this weekend and there were the little cards on the table, some advice for the new mother and I wrote, let people help you. Yeah. Because I think we don't, and it, it's funny that you mentioned that because it wasn't intentional, but the day that I first gave my son peanut butter and he reacted, my sister happened to be at my house, she doesn't live locally. I wonder, looking back, like if it, there was a part of my brain that felt brave enough to do it that day because, because she was there without me planning it that way. Yes. But yeah, it makes such a good point we have to, find the supports around us, and not be afraid to lean on them because we would offer the same support to anyone else in an instant. All of us,

Lucy Upton, MNutr 12:54

what I say all of the time, and I turn around and I say, for these people, which, and that everyone's like, oh my god, in a heartbeat. I think the other thing actually, which often isn't spoken about widely, but I talk to a lot of my families about, um, this is, again, some of this is just sort of not necessarily, you know, like in a scientific paper somewhere, but very much through kind of practice based evidence is that, um, I find a lot of the burden of, so if we're talking about introducing allergens in the uk, that would very often fall to a mother who would be on maternity leave because, you know. Dads will be back at work, for example. 'cause standard leave is two weeks paternity here and then they got back. Um, it was very much, you know, to women who also probably doing a million other things who, you know, might be having challenges with their own mental health who might be carrying a huge mental load. And actually this is another thing to do. And actually, um, I talk quite a lot to families, you know, when I'm talking to mothers often on calls or, or they're the only one there with their baby in clinic, for example. You know, like about how, you know, if you are, if you struggle to advocate for yourself, how can we empower the other people around you to help advocate for you and, and your son or daughter. But it's, and you know, I think it's just a nod to the fact that sometimes it's, you know, we're struggling to, you know, we need to ask other people to help hold some space too, or, or help open those doors and push open those doors or take control of something for us. And that, that is all, again, that's part of that asking for help. But, um, you know, supporting other people around you to advocate can be really, really helpful. When you're a new, you know, you're a new mother.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 14:20

Absolutely. I, I'm so glad you're saying that, and I hope everyone listening is hearing and remembering all stages of life, not just when you're a new mother.. Mm. 'cause as we said, each phase changes and there are new challenges ahead. Just when you think you've got it,

Lucy Upton, MNutr 14:33

no one is, but no one feels like they're nailing it for very long. I'm, I'm sure. I, I, I eat my words every time. I'm like, oh, I feel like we just got our heads around this. And I'm like, oh, give it 48 hours now. I've sent the timer off. I've said it out loud now. Should have said it out loud. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I literally said it a few days ago, um, with, you know, with our daughter. I was like, oh, you know, of course it the terrible twos. And I don't love that label, actually. Right. Because I think it preempts negativity. And actually when you understand what toddler's brain is doing, actually you can, you can view it and for such a different lens and with so much empathy and you feel so much more empowered as a parent. Um, but generally what, you know, I was using it in the context of, you know, actually don't think she has, you know, that many tantrums and actually, you know, she's, she's, we're, we're doing all right. I think, you know, we, we've been luck of the draw of course, and, um, very much eaten my words this last weekend. Uh huh. And, uh, yes. Again, I'm humbled by my small human.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 15:27

Well, and speaking of tantrums, and you touched on this before, um, with when we know something, but that doesn't mean that the fear won't take over. I was so excited about your book, but I was the most excited when you started acknowledging and talking about the role of the nervous system, because that hijacks everything else. Our knowledge. Yeah. Our experience. What do you think is the most important piece of this for people to understand in terms of that role of the nervous system?

Lucy Upton, MNutr 15:50

God, it's hard to niche it down, isn't it? I, I think there's a few points, I think. I think even just that awareness of what is going on in our own nervous system, but also what's going on in the nervous system of our children around eating. And actually this feeds into, you know, if you've got a child who's refusing food or you're having a tricky time around the table, but also it really feeds into our food allergy children and our food allergy parents, because actually. I can almost see it when parents come in to see me, that they are in a constant state. And this isn't necessarily just newly diagnosed either. You know? Um, that nervous system is, is on the brink of, or tipping over into kind of fight or flight. Dysregulated not okay. And you can see that, I think we can see that from the, you know, we are all aware of that from the people around us. You know, oh my gosh, they seem short today. Oh my, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. You know, so often it can feel a bit finger pointy, can't it? Whereas actually, again, when I, I think viewing kind of, I. Us as parents, both the way we look at ourselves and are kind to ourselves, but also thinking about the impact on children is that, you know, actually if our nervous systems are not okay because of, you know, let's look at food allergies. So, you know, try introducing new foods, you know, during weaning or offering something new to your child before the, you might have checked the label three times, but they've still never eaten it before. Your nervous system is probably not going to be. Super relaxed, chilled, nice green zone, um, calm and regulated. You are probably going to be dysregulated. You're probably going to be feeling that adrenaline pumping, that fight or flight, sort of kicking in. Um, I think what's worth acknowledging there, and again, I talk to parents a lot about this, is actually in those moments, you know, parents will say to me, it's like, I'm looking for anything. Like they itch their nose and I'm like, yeah, that's the hypervigilance that comes with all that adrenaline slamming around your body. The thing, you know, the thing that's meant to make us know which way to run. Um, you know, what's, what's the safest, quickest thing I can do to get out of this scenario and, and, you know, that fight or flight or you know, how am I gonna make sure I dodge all of these punches or whatever it might be? It's the equivalent. You are gonna look at everything. You are gonna be hypervigilant about everything you are. You might fly off the handle when you are, you know, desperate for them to consume a food on the milk ladder and they reject it that day because you, you really needed it in that moment and your nervous system is up here. And actually, I think it's just being, it's. We don't, it's just not talked about enough. I don't think we kind of recognize in ourself that we're not okay. But you know, I talk to parents a lot about it in the context of actually, particularly with young children who are not good at regulating their emotions, may not have the literacy to label them yet, you know, cognitively or even language. Um, there's very much a figure of eight and I talk to parents about, at the table, insert any scenario that might feel frustrating, anxiety provoking, et cetera. Or might just, um, you know, agitate us, might activate us at the table like when your child refuses food for the third day in a row, or you spend ages making a meal and it's gone. And we are, you know, we're activated and we are pushing ourselves. As soon as you are not okay, they're probably not going to be okay. It won't take long. And it's like a figure of eight, like. If I'm okay, we do this constant check in. I'm okay. You're okay, I'm okay. You're okay. And that's lovely matter, that nice and flowing. You're okay. I'm okay. The moment. And, and it can go either way with a child and a parent. A parent not okay child. Probably gonna pick on that quite quickly. You know, young children are very receptive and not necessarily through what even we say, our tone of voice, our tension, how we hold ourself, our behaviors. We might become frantic, we might get in this space. Um, and if we are not okay, they're gonna pick up on that. And they're probably going to sense threats too. And in those moments where a child is perceiving, oh my God, my mom is not okay, I'm assuming something in my environment is not safe. That feeling of felt safety at this table right now, gone. And it could work the other way. So child not okay in whatever way, you know, might do something, say something, not be okay, parent won't be okay, because you're sweeping in, you know, and it's, it's just being aware of that. And I, you know, and I then I always lay that foundation with, you know, this isn't me saying, why aren't you cool as a cucumber every time? Yeah, that's okay. But it's being aware of that and being okay to give yourself permission to go, okay, you know, what am I gonna do about this? How am I approach this next time, once I've had the time to think about this? And also, I think I wrote this in the book, like having some empathy for our children, you know, and that won't happen at the time whilst we're in the red zone. And whilst how won't happen whilst we're agitated, but often coming back afterwards and being like, oh yeah, do you know what, that was probably really hard work for them. And actually I was asking them to try this food and I was getting quite upset. But also, you know, they were knackered after school. Um. Actually had three bowls of cereal this morning. Maybe they weren't even hungry. You know, it, it, but that only works when that lovely logical brain, that reasoning, that thing that we can do with our adult developed brains comes into play. And actually for children, that's not gonna be the case either. Um, I dunno what you think. I often find that, um, it's really easy as us, for us as parents to forget that we are not just dealing with small adults. We are dealing with like humans, small humans. And they are very different in their development. Their brain is developed differently and wired differently at this stage in terms of their, their capacity for certain things. Um, and I say the same with nutrition. You know, we're not dealing with small adults. We're dealing with this kind of unique, tiny human

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 21:29

right.

Lucy Upton, MNutr 21:30

Still developing

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 21:31

and dependent, so dependent on us. And you, you know, you described it so beautifully, my favorite word, which you do use in the book, that co-regulation. Yeah. And, and instead of so desperately wanting, when we are not in a good state. We want them to be okay so that we can feel better. It works in the opposite direction every single time, and it's so easy to say, but so difficult to do, right? Oh,

Lucy Upton, MNutr 21:52

in the moment. In the moment. Because in the moment we can't think logically either. We are not thinking with our front brain. Biology is taking over. You know, I say give yourself a break. Like at the moment it doesn't matter what you know, has activated you, what the worry has been, where your nervous system is, but like giving yourself a hard time for it isn't gonna be helpful, even though we all do it. You know, just, oh, I should have been calmer. Like I should have been X. Which is why I wanted to put it in. 'cause the more we understand about it, the more we can kind of approach ourselves and our children with more empathy, more understanding, and also think about what we can do to safeguard and put in place. Things that might help. Yes. Because that's what the next bit is, right? Is what can we do next?

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 22:32

Right. To prepare for the next time. Hmm. Learn from the experience. The more we beat ourselves up, the more our nervous system stays in fight or flight because it's just like someone else attacking us specifically. Hmm.

Lucy Upton, MNutr 22:42

And then when the more we do that, the more those lovely neuron pathways in the brain fire quickly down what we are really familiar. You know, we are what we habitually do, including what we habitually think. You know, and I always say to parents, you know, whenever we are really sort of putting a plan in place around kind of perhaps, you know, thinking about meal times or thinking about something food allergy related, like approaching a ladder or introductions, is that actually we are gonna have to rinse and repeat the stuff that goes well and that's gonna feel harder. That's gonna feel like, you know, when you go on a walk and you are like, I think there's a path that way. Like I can, I can kind of see it's there. It has been trodden before, but there's only a little bit of flattened grass. Whereas actually, you know, the, the well paved path with a clear this way please, might be the thing that we've been doing for months, years, and it can be really hard to try and navigate a different way. It takes time and if it take, it takes effort and, and energy, which, you know, classically as, as parents, we don't have lots of

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 23:37

Right, you said it very well earlier, we do know we notice when people are off, we pick up on it because our nervous systems are wired to notice it. It's just changing the perspective about it. Instead of, like you said, pointing fingers. It's recognizing and responding accordingly. That's the shift, knowing that that's information that that person is giving us. Including, like you said, our child recognizing where they're at.

Lucy Upton, MNutr 24:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And I think, yeah, exactly everything that you say, like no finger pointing, no, no blame. 'cause actually parents carry a lot of blame, you know, especially when we're thinking about food allergies. Like, I really wanna put that kind of lens on for a minute. You know, I hear, you know, from diagnosis often with parents and particularly mothers, a lot of self-blame talk. Is it, 'cause I did this in pregnancy, is it because I did, didn't, you know, breastfeed? Is it because I, I ate this whilst I was breastfeeding? Is it because I didn't do this? Is it because, do you know what I mean? Like, like that's, and that's understandable. I think that's quite a natural search for like this really, um, this really hard thing has happened to me and my child. Um. And I wouldn't choose for this to be happening and I'm kind of processing that and, but women in particular again, and that's very much backed by research, is that're very good at turning the lens inwards and going, God, it must be something I've done wrong and, and that. It is a mixing pot, therefore, of emotions of, you know, of blame, of shame and um, then a sort of a franticness to want to fix it. And that can be really, really, you know, sometimes we'll just spend a bit of time in an appointment just dealing with that bit and, you know, recognizing that there are things that we can control as parents. Equally, there are many things that we can't, even if we look at something like allergy risk, you know, you can't control if you've got a genetic predisposition to atopy in your family, you know, I have one of those in my family and we carry it. And I was having a conversation with my mum actually about that because, you know, my sister's had to have some quite major surgery recently because of a genetic thing that's been passed down. And, um. My mom was talking about, you know, with guilt and blame and these feelings, and I said, oh, it's interesting. Would you feel guilty? Do you feel, would you feel guilt or blame if we were talking about the fact we've all got hay fever? We do. We're like really atopic family. We all got hay fever and poll food syndrome and stuff like that. Do you feel guilty about that? Mom was like, no. You know, and, but there's, but so much of a genetic element to that, you know? It's, it's, it's, and it's just the way, you know, you don't give yourself a hard time for one thing, but you do for another, even if they're similar. It's interesting. But, you know, I think that that self empathy, that being aware and then being informed can really, really help in terms of what, you know, how, what the journey looks like ahead for you and your, you know, you and your child.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 26:17

Definitely. this is where we teeter on all the things that we know and we should be doing then create the guilt and the shame. Hmm. But you know, what you're saying is about, I. Creating this good foundation for food, introduction and eating for the rest of our lives and mm-hmm. Of course you talk about like the gut microbiome, all of these things that we're talking about that sound like they sound behavioral, they sound mental health, they sound social, emotional. Mm-hmm. But they have biological ties like when we talk about fight or flight. The body state of, of calm is rest and digest. Mm-hmm. So literally to digest our food and to create healthy guts, we have to spend time in the rest and digest state. Right. That shapes our gut microbiome. The gut microbiome can't develop healthy if we are in fight or flight all the time.

Lucy Upton, MNutr 27:02

No, no, no, no, no. And it's well shown. That's well shown to not, or there'd be differences. But again, you know, I think when I was, we talked about this initially, didn't we? When I was sort of writing the book and I, you know, I was very much sort of, um, staunchly quite firm when I was speaking to my publisher at the beginning and just being like, you know, we want a book about nutrition. We want a book about feeding kids. And I was like, you know, we really want that nutrition lens. 'cause there's so much misinformation and so much to weigh throughout there. And I was like, I will absolutely do that. You know, it's great to inform parents on things that can support a healthy gut microbiome, brain development. Um, you know, all those foundations, those nutritional foundations. But the foundations also look like what feeds their future in other ways in terms of how we feed children. Because you're, you know, a child could have the healthiest. You know, by the very health define healthy, right? But healthiest diet ever. But if they have a terrible relationship with food alongside those things that they eat, actually, is that a healthier, is that a healthy diet? You know, and I, and I think I, you know, really wanted to kinda make sure that do both because then you can make informed decisions. And I think that is what is really, really important for parents is that everything you do is about, you know, we're constantly wading through information at the moment and that when you're a parent, oh my god, I remember as soon as I was pregnant, like my algorithms on everything changed and you are like, boom, boom, boom. And I was like, oh my god. So much decision making. Do we, do you know, even like, let prm do I buy? God, could someone just, and you go, can someone just tell me what to do? Could you just tell me the best pram to get within this price range? Please. Right. Like, because it's constant decision making even before your baby's here. There's so much sense of responsibility about getting everything right. And I think I wanted to make sure that everybody knew that, you know, there are foundations for nutrition but "right" looks different for every family. I think it ended the book just saying, you know, health looks different for everybody. This is here. So you can pick and choose and be aware and make the decisions that feel right for you as a family. And also know how to navigate when things don't feel like they're going, you know, quite right. And be aware of that. Um, but health looks different on everybody and it's, it's deciding what's important for you. It's making yourself aware so you can pick, move, and choose, so much of what I see in the nutrition world at the moment is, polarizing we're back to good or bad. You know, I, I really fear for children growing up at the moment who have access to this information via social media because very, you know, influential people largely with large voices, not necessarily. A medical, you know, robust nutritional background. For example, making really bold claims about things that are making people feel fear around food. Again, feel, you know, and it's, and I worry for it, but, but also very loud voices that are very good at selling things that they shouldn't be selling. You know, I see the amount of things that if I put my, again, food allergy lens on the amount of, um, unregulated unvalidated testing that I see people doing, spending tons of money on, you know, send your hair off for this. Send, send a blood sample for this, and, you know, we're testing for this, and I just don't know, you know, I want to lobby these with every ounce of my being because I see parents literally flushing money down the toilet, but also I'm getting children down the line who've had all of these foods cut out. Funnily enough, their symptoms haven't resolved because there's no validation. Um, a parent who's just completely lost with what to do and actually missed opportunities along the way because, you know, they've gone with something that somebody has been very confidently selling to them. And is, is, is, is, is preying. It's preying on, um, parental anxiety and the want to get everything right. And the, the unknown, you know, as parents when we don't know what's going on with our children, we want an answer and we want it sharpish, don't we? And I just, you know, things like that, lots of, you know, lots of excessive supplementation. I now see being sold online and all of these things. I see lots of sort of gut heals. You know, your i'll, I'll cure your child's eczema with a gut heal. And I'm like, there's no evidence space for that. And it makes me so, you know, obviously activates me as a health professional because I just think, please don't do that. Even as health professionals, we, we always do our best with the information we have at the time. And I think this is the thing is that the science is still evolving, the science of food allergy very much evolving. It's fascinating watching it all come out. Things have changed even in the last 10, 15 years. You know, the same goes with, you know. Parenting and understanding brain development, uh, microbio, you know, all of this is moving and so we're trying to keep as up to date as possible, but that also means that sometimes when we're, you know, parents are desperate for answers, we will always, we can never give a black and white, we have to be quite nuanced. my favorite phrase as a dietician, like, it depends. And that's frustrating It doesn't sell on TikTok. It depends. Lemme tell you. It doesn't, it doesn't, you know, um, so I just back to, you know, making sure you focus on, you know, informing yourself with the information that you want from a reliable source who is unbiased, you know, who isn't trying to sell you something necessarily. I realize that this is a book, and I, I'm not trying to say in my book, but do you know what I mean? Like, not trying to say you a product or a, or a promise, I think is, is, you know, key. Um. And I

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 32:12

just, in your defense, a a research backed book by a professional with decades Yes. 15 years of experience is different It's a bit different.

Lucy Upton, MNutr 32:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, I just realized we're talking about my book. Um, yeah. So it's, it's difficult for parents though. I, I feel, you know, as a parent, I fully empathize with how challenging it can be to navigate all this information.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 32:34

It is, you're right that our fear is being capitalized on. But I think it's not just fear, it's kind of, it's psychological tricks, right? It's marketing. Yes, coming from every direction. So there's this one side where we want quick fixes, right? We want an easy answer. and then We wanna know everything that's in there. We want choice and control. We want all the information. Mm-hmm. Both wanting to know everything and wanting a quick fix,

Lucy Upton, MNutr 32:56

yeah. And do you know what, it's something I really talk to families about because I, I, when I approach food allergies with children and with parents, when we very first have a conversation, lots of people always say to me, like, as a dietician, what's your, um, one big overarching piece that you want people to hear? And I was talked to, you know, my starting point with families is always that, you know, when you get a food allergy diagnosis, all you hear is a lot of no. And your child hears over time, a lot of nos, a lot of avoid, um. A lot of like safe, unsafe, big words, big words, big emotions attached to those things. When we talk about those things, you know, I always think of the words, interestingly in my kind of feeding clinic, which started to move away from safe and unsafe outside of the context of allergies. Because when we say something's a safe food, the opposite of that would suggest it's not safe. And that's actually not entirely correct, right? In the context, you know, it's an accepted food versus one that's not yet accepted or not currently accepted, may never be accepted, but it doesn't really matter. Anyway, different context with food allergy. Um, and I would say my first bit of advice is, you know, let's have a focus on foods your child can eat. But then we also, you know, so I really am like a, like, let's just shift a bit. Like we know we've got to do the avoidance piece, but it can feel like so much is something unavailable. Like you say you then you go for anything, right? Brands will put on the front of packaging, like. You know, allergen friendly, I think is often the, you know, the word which isn't really like a legal isolated, right. Depending on what you're allergic to. Right. Because it could say allergen friendly and it would be based very much on our kind of like top 14 allergens, right? Um, but you know, I've got lots of children now who are allergic to, I don't know, like pea. Um, and that's finding its way into our food system. A lot more, a lot more pea proteins and isolates and, and it might have, you know, coconut and oats and stuff like that. These things are no, you know, not considered to be allergens and yet we are finding more and more children allergic to them. So, you know, it's still nuanced, isn't it? But I think. As you say, there's, there's, for me, I always talk to parents about striking that balance between, actually what I also want is to make sure that your child is getting the broad range of nutrients they need on a restricted diet. And that is very important because research shows that children who have got one or one or more food allergies are more likely to be deficient in certain like, um, vitamins and minerals micronutrients. Um, equally alongside that, I want to make sure your child has the emotional and social experiences around food. So it has an element of foods that might be a birthday parties, you know, that are therefore safe and they can be included. There's standard dietician, always a middle ground for me, but I think it is really important parents are aware that actually across the board, we still want to be honing in on those principles of a balanced diet. We want to be going, well actually could, you know, fruit is safe? Could we have a piece of fruit at a snack time rather than this thing that's multiple allergen friendly? You know, could we, are we. Making sure that we're offering the right nutrients here rather than the snacks might actually might be quite nutrient devoid really. And it might just be a bit of corn, you know, fine. We all grab those things on the go, as you say. There's no judgment that comes with this, but it's again, just shifting that perspective to are we actually making sure that we're offering the range of nutrients children need to, um, grow and develop in the same way as their peers who don't have food allergies? You know? And we know that it is harder. And so I can fully understand, like, I get it. I, I, every year, um, since I qualified and started working in food allergies, I accept myself a challenge for like two weeks to be like, something free, just to see what it's like, try the new products, you know, I like to be able to recommend things based on some actual experience. And, you know, if it really doesn't, if this milk alternative doesn't work well to make mac and cheese, I don't wanna say that it does, you know, because I, it just feels disingenuous. I love that. Yeah. And I. Every year I, I'm astounded, but by exactly that. And one thing always being like, oh my God, like, this is, every year I'm like, I forget how hard this is. God, my, my food shop takes five times. And I'm like, I see you. I see you. I'm like watching these people checking these labels. And I'm like, I see you. I know what you are up to. I, I, I absolutely see you. But with that, I do, you know, what I always sort of come back to is going, well, actually, it would be really easy to rely on all of these other foods that are labeled as allergen friendly. Hold on a minute. I just need to go back to basics. I need to go to the fruit and veg. I need to go and get some fish. If I can have fish or I can go get some meat, I need to go find some pulses in the tindle. I need to go and find these nutrient dense foods that are reliable sources of nutrition. Mm-hmm. But I, you know, I'm very aware that also relies a lot on, um, feeling confident with how to cook. And there's lots of, uh, you know, there's, I I think maybe it's quite bold of me to say, I feel like, um, it's quite a bit of a lost art and, and maybe it's a lost art. Maybe it's that we, um, don't have as much time anymore. 'cause often two parents are going back to work. And so, God, I feel it. I, my husband was away last week and so I had obviously had my daughter as well. And when there isn't one of you to look after her, whilst the other one's like, you know, in the kitchen and, you know, everyone's like, oh, just, you know, they can help. And I'm like, have you seen a two year old's attention span? Like, she's gonna help this, this dinner's gotta be ready in five minutes, otherwise, you know, and so I think it's just, absolutely, as parents, we will turn to convenience. We will turn to easier options, but I think sometimes it's worth taking that step back and going. Hold on a minute. Is there anything else I can be adding in here? Anything else we can that is actually nutritionally dense? What can they eat? Oh yeah, God, we haven't been down this aisle for a while, or, you know, oh, I'm just gonna pick up a few more bags of frozen fruit and veg, you know, that I can chuck into stuff throughout the week. Um, and also just be aware of, you know, over time it's, it is gonna be about balancing. How do we also understand the impact of some of the other ingredients might be having even on allergy risk. Um, there's a really interesting paper that came out, um, was it last year? Don't quote me on the year, all about kind of use of ultra processed foods in, um, and allergy risk factors. And actually, unsurprisingly, we know a diet higher in ultra processed foods seems to be, you know, not, it's not causation because it never is, but correlated, um, with kind of like the food allergy side of things. And we're very much looking into that more. And it isn't black and white because there are lots of things. Ultra process doesn't mean bad by all accounts. You know, in the UK we rely a lot on, you know, I always give, uh, fortified serials, like as an example. You know, lots of the children in the uk you know about most children will rely, I think it's the data's around like 20% of their iron requirements every day are met through fortified cereals. For me, that's a really important nutrient and actually for me, a really reliable source of nutrition that most children will eat most days. Can we make choices where, you know, there's a little bit more fiber and a little bit less sugar and salt? Yes, please. That would be brilliant. Um, but we're not gonna label those foods as you know, is not black or white bad. But actually, you know, there's lots of research now sort of looking into. You know, the impact of things like of certain emulsifiers on the gut microbiome and I, and it's this really complex interaction that really, if we're honest, when we think of it from a science perspective, we're probably in our infancy of understanding and now we're sort of starting to get those glimmers and the research money is moving. You know, I think we will see more over time. But, you know, my best bit of advice for parents is where you can like, prioritize those whole foods. Lots of those whole foods that will be allergen free bar milk. I'm just gonna caveat that milk allergy group there, um, you know, are great. And again, just to sort of pull some research in, again, there was yet another paper that includes a dietician who I think is wonderful. Karina Venter, who was looking at dietary variety during weaning and allergy risk. And lots of the focus during weaning is that, oh, we'll prevent allergies by getting those allergens in brilliant data behind that. Now absolutely we should be doing that. But there is this body of evidence building behind, which is that actually, you know. Giving good variety. The more variety we add in, particularly of plant-based foods. So, which I mean, my brain immediately goes, hello, gut microbiome of plant-based foods during weaning. The more we reduce allergy risk overall too. So not just allergenic foods, just these whole foods, these plant-based foods. And that absolutely is going to be that mediation with that lovely community of gut bacteria that we have. And again, this is all about, this isn't about dietician says you must have a thousand foods before one, because that isn't realistic or appropriate for all families or achievable, maybe even from a financial point of view. But it's about going, if I'm making a decision between X or Y, I'm gonna go for this, you know, a tinned beans versus, you know, a baby snack kind of puff. Right. You know what I mean? Like, okay, I'm gonna try and use that. I'm gonna, is there something easy? Is there an easy swap? Is there an easy change? What can I add? Rather than, you know, that constant narrative we have of take everything taking out, out, take out, take out, take out.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 41:47

Yes. I love that emphasis on what I can add, what we can give our bodies. The way that I phrase it with my kids, and a lot of times with my clients, is what you just said. What have you given your body today? Does your body need more that's fresh today? And how do you feel when you eat that versus how do you feel when you snack on a giant bag of salty pretzels? Right. Um, so I love that. And I would love for you to expand more on what language you like to use around this, because the language we use affects our nervous system. The language we use shapes all of our beliefs about this. It's so important. Yeah.

Lucy Upton, MNutr 42:20

Yeah, and I think, um, I love that I talk to lots of families and about exactly that, like nutrition by addition. So sometimes the older children will, um, get that. And I think we need to be careful with really how we talk around. Um, it's diff different for parents and adults, but actually when we're thinking about children, um. I, well, often the early language we will start to be thinking about is, is what does that give, like this food gives us energy to play like it, it needs to be relatable for that child. You know, I will see parents, you know, for context, again, I think I wrote this in the book, particularly when you're struggling to get a child to eat something, often we will use like. A health halo on it, we'd be like, you need to eat the broccoli 'cause it's good for you. And for a 2-year-old, that's a really abstract concept. Like, what do you mean good? Like, we know what we know. We're like, yes, this is all of fiber, it's gonna do this. And it contains the folate. Like they don't one need to know that at this stage. Like they don't, 'cause they're not making their own decisions around food necessarily. And two, actually can add a lot of additional pressure, you know, particularly when we're trying to like this idea, you know, lots of parents are trying to get to my child to eat, which is something I sort of try and steer away from anyway. That kind of mindset of kind of supporting is different to getting, um, so very much focusing for children on like what does it do for their body? And that that as their age and their understanding increases can sort of change. You know, saying to a toddler, this is a really good source of vitamin C, which means you might not get sick when you go to nursery. They're just like in the moment, like they're sensory motor learners. They're like, does it look feel good? Do I wanna eat it? Yes or no? Right. But when you've got a child who's going to school, actually, you know, you can be like, actually this contains, you know, a natural chemical that, um, or vitamin C can just label it what it is. Um, and vitamin C is really for our immune system, our immune system help keeps out people. We don't want to be here and help keeps us, well, you know, really like almost neutral, factual kind of language. And you know, I, I always say to parents when you're talking around food with children to consider like the, the three Fs. So, um, fun for young children because they are, um, imaginative magical thinkers. Children like they learn through play. They, you know, they think it's hilarious. If all of a sudden I did this at lunchtime today, um, because my daughter was like laughing at me because I had a piece of avocado and I said it was a lizard tongue. I was like, I've got a green lizard tongue. I was just being silly. I was actually being silly because my husband was eating it. And I was like, what are you doing? And you know, I was like, you've got a lizard tongue. Immediately. I've spoken her language around that food. It's exciting. It's different. Hold on a minute. We saw a lizard the other day when we went to the butterfly farm. Like, I can relate to this, you know, I don't relate to nutrition education. I'm, I'm a toddler. And then so, so there's fun. Um, there's factual and that is very, um, that's neutral. And I always say, you know, things like delicious and tasty, which we often use to encourage, don't we try, it's delicious. And like that might work with your partner or your friends who are adults and they know you and you know each other's food preferences and you, you know. But actually it's very, what does that mean? Like it means something different for everybody. Like Delicious is we know that it means that you like it, but it doesn't actually tell me anything about that food. You know? So with older children, like that factual side of things, when they start to become more concrete thinkers, you know, actually, you know, this is carbohydrate food, carbohydrates give us energy to play, or this is a fat fats really good for our brain. Like lots of our brain is made of fat. You know, that's actually just factual. And then I think the final thing really is fair. So fun, factual, and then fair. And I think that's always about thinking, you know, if we are talking about food, it is about being, um, fair in terms of we're not using food as bribery. We're not using, we're not negotiating coercing, putting food on a pedestal because we're trying to get 'em to eat something. So we say, you can have the, the ice cream, 'cause all of a sudden an ice cream, even if, you know, even it's delicious anyway, isn't it? That's me. Delicious. It's, it's one, you know, we all enjoy ice cream anyway. It's palatable. It's meant to be enjoyable. It's meant to be bought, it's meant to be enjoyed. It's good for the soul in so many ways. But by saying that if you do something, you can have it immediately. We started to notch it up on the desirability index, as I often call it. Like now it's something that I have to earn now it's something that's withheld now I want it more. We know that kind of forbid and fruitiness can kind of, so I, and you know, so fair is not using food in any of those ways, but also being really aware of, you know, if you are talking around food to your children and you really, really want them to eat it is now what you are saying solely for that purpose. Are you supporting them to feel comfortable around food? Are you educating? Is it feeling kind of, um, we are having that conversation anyway or am I flooding you with, uh, things about this food? 'cause I'm trying to get you to eat it. Mm. I'm telling you it's good for you. It's gonna grow you bigger and strong. That's why little Freddy in your class, I bet he eats his broccoli. That's no longer fair. That's starting to push over into that pressure and goodbye nervous system for your child. You the child buying. Okay. The child's I'm Okay. Is just gone. Yep. Take the time. You're okay. You're gonna be that they're not eating it. And then goodbye. Figure of eight. I'm okay. You're okay. You're both not okay. We're going in different, a different zone here. So yeah. Fun, factual, and fair and then thinking very much about what it does for us. And make it relatable to that child and their age. You know, nobody needs to be talking about like the Krebs cycle for carbohydrates like.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 47:40

Yeah. Thank you so much. I love that. That was actually one of the notes that I had here about your book because those mnemonics help us remember it, right? They help us, they do prioritize, what am I doing here when I don't know what to say or I am starting to get frustrated. Those are the things that bring us back into the moment of how did I wanna approach this? What did Lucy say about,

Lucy Upton, MNutr 47:56

what did Lucy say? I mean, the one thing I'll finish on is that the biggest language we can use when we're supporting children. If we want, you know, if we, we we're encouraging them in the way that we, you know, all parents want their child to eat a healthy, balanced diet. I don't think there is a single parent I've ever met who wouldn't want that for them. And I think the thing to remember is like, even with all these tips and tricks, the absolute best language is gonna be what you are doing. Kids are gonna do what they see. They're trusted. Um, adults, they're trusted. You know that they are gonna look to you their favorite people in the whole world. And like to finish on something really, really positive that I always use with parents, and you might have seen this on a video many moons ago, is that I often, when I've got children who are old enough in clinic and, you know, whatever the context might be around their eating, might be, you know, the food allergy might be elective eating. It might be both. Mm-hmm. Um, I will say to par, I will say to the child, I'm really interested if you could invite anyone for dinner tonight, who would you have dinner with? And parents sit there and they're like, every parent is like, oh, I was, you know, expecting, you know, bluey or was expecting, you know, Spider-Man or like, you know, insert appropriate thing. And I would say in the last how many years of doing this, there's only a handful of children who haven't said, my parents. And I think that's just that you watch parents' faces. And actually really famously this was, I only started doing this 'cause it was a very famous, I think it was an advertisement, an Australian where they did a similar thing and I was like interesting. But in that moment it gives some parents something really, really important to latch onto, which is they want the time with you. It isn't about the food. I'm not asking them what they want to eat. I'm asking them who do they want to spend that time with. And I think that really hones down into like connection can come first. Like don't think about your meal perfection. Do not think about your healthy, balanced diet. And that is the goal of this mealtime actually you that will come often when children like coming to the mealtime and they get that connection from you and the rest falls in place afterwards if you are offering it. And I think, as I say, we can be really preoccupied with that, the new, the health bit being the balanced diet and the broccoli. Whereas actually that comes often after we've got felt safety and connection and a nice place to be at the mealtime first.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 50:08

That's just a perfect point to end on The line that's often, it probably comes from Dan Siegel Connect before you, correct? Yes. So yes, that's you, you, and that includes what we want our children to eat. Right. If we want to, to offer them a variety of foods to connecting with them and eating them together, whether they try it or not.

Lucy Upton, MNutr 50:26

Yes.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 50:26

I I love that.

Lucy Upton, MNutr 50:27

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, and it, and it works, but it's, it's, you know, it is a long game. Right,

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 50:33

Thank you so much for sharing all this. Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Yes. Please tell everybody, where they can find you they can find your book everywhere, Use

Lucy Upton, MNutr 50:41

I book everywhere and I'm trying very much. We're in the process of meeting my publisher tomorrow, actually thinking about getting print over to the us You can get it electronically over in the US at the moment. No problem. Um, so you can find me on Instagram and on TikTok 'cause apparently I'm a TikTok now. Um, uh, at Children's Dietician. And just a reminder for US folks, um, in the UK we spell dieticians. God, this might sound inappropriate with "Tits", not "Tics". So it's dietitian with a T. So the way more remembers it, they're like, ah, you're a UK dietician 'cause you've got "Tits", not "Tics". I was like, okay. And I won't forget that now. Um, so you can find me, yeah, on Instagram, on TikTok. I've got a website. You can find my book, the Ultimate Guide to Children's Nutrition in lots of places now. Um, and yeah, say hello. Like I'm very much a present, present, professional who likes to meet the audience I'm speaking to and connect. So. I can

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD 51:32

attest to that. You, you responded so quickly when I reached out to you. I'm so excited about your book. I wanna have you on the show and boom, you're like, I'm in. So thank you so much for doing Yeah, pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

51:41

Thank you again so much to Lucy Upton for joining me for this episode. Sharing all of your expertise and shedding light on the importance of embracing nutritional wellness in a healthy and confident way. As we wrap up, here are your three action steps that you can take. Number one, Follow Lucy as she hilariously explained the spelling her social media handle is at Children's Dietitian, D-I-E-T-I-T-I-A-N, Number two, get your hands on Lucy's book. I'm in the US and many of my listeners are too. You can purchase it on Kindle, and if you're not, you're fortunate to be able to get a copy in your actual hands. It is absolutely worth the time. It is called "The Ultimate Guide to Children's Nutrition: How to Nurture Happy, H ealthy Eaters in the First Five Years." This book is not just about what to feed your kids and when, but how and how to make the relationship with food judgment free. I will be buying the book for anyone I know and love who is having a child. Number three, I would encourage you to just. Open the door to your pantry to soak in everything that you've learned, everything that you have had to work around and accommodate and advocate for, and protect, and just take stock of all of the hard work that you have done to get to whatever point in your food allergy journey you're at at this point in time. the content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. If you have any questions about your own medical experience or mental health needs, please consult a professional. I'm Dr. Amanda White house. Thanks for joining me. And until we chat again, remember don't feed the fear.